From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 00:17:11 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:17:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
Message-ID: <200609010017.11978.k.oliver@t-online.de>

Hello,
I installed and configured mailman on Debian Sarge running apache2 and exim4. 
I set up a list and the list adminstrator / owner can post to the list from a 
remote client. I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that 
there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post 
to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted. 

/var/log/exim4/mainlog:
2006-09-01 00:00:52 H=mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay 
not permitted

Here are parts of my exim4 config:
[..]
# On Debian systems, the main binary is installed as exim4 to avoid
# conflicts with the exim 3 packages.
exim_path = /usr/sbin/exim4

# Macro defining the main configuration directory.
# We do not use absolute paths.
.ifndef CONFDIR
CONFDIR = /etc/exim4
.endif

# This sets a macro DC_minimaldns if dc_minimaldns=true. If
# dc_minimaldns=false, this expands to an empty line.
.ifndef DC_minimaldns
DEBCONFminimaldnsDEBCONF
.endif

# Create other macros from Debconf. Macros created here are used in
# other places in exim config.
.ifndef DC_visiblename
DC_visiblename=DEBCONFvisiblenameDEBCONF
.endif

# Create domain and host lists for relay control
# '@' refers to 'the name of the local host'

.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = DEBCONFlocal_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = DEBCONFrelay_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = DEBCONFrelay_netsDEBCONF
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS

# Specify the domain you want to be added to all unqualified addresses
# here. Unqualified addresses are accepted only from local callers by
# default. The recipient_unqualified_hosts option can be used to permit
# unqualified addresses from remote sources.
# If qualify_domain is not set, the primary_hostname value is used for
# qualification.
# The ifdef bracket makes sure that an empty debconf value is correctly
# translated to "unset".
.ifdef DC_visiblename
qualify_domain = DC_visiblename
.endif
[..]
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory.
# By default this is set to "/usr/local/mailman"
# On a Red Hat/Fedora system using the RPM use "/var/mailman"
# On Debian using the deb package use "/var/lib/mailman"
# This is normally the same as ~mailman
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
#
# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
# Value is normally "mailman"
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon
#
# Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
# you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com
#
# -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
#
# These values are derived from the ones above and should not need
# editing unless you have munged your mailman installation
#
# The path of the Mailman mail wrapper script
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman
#
# The path of the list config file (used as a required file when
# verifying list addresses)
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
driver = accept
require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
local_part_suffix_optional
local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
-owner : -request : -admin
transport = mailman_transport
[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
driver = pipe
command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
'${if def:local_part_suffix \
{${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
{post}}' \
$local_part
current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
user = MAILMAN_USER
group = MAILMAN_GROUP

Any idea how to configure Exim4 to allow posting to mailing list for 
subscribers like someone at somedomain.tld?


From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 00:56:43 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:56:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220608311436i14e1cd7dmbbb0fa6bf7c5eb21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <98a90c220608311013k1972c218t6dcb2c688971546f@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006083110270805315071e57b@msapiro>
	<98a90c220608311436i14e1cd7dmbbb0fa6bf7c5eb21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could
do this for me. Or, am I missing something?

Later,
Tom

On 8/31/06, Tom Kavanaugh <tomnaugh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> That workes!
> Thanks folks.
>
>
> On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> >
> > Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> > >
> > >Currently "View subscribers list" displays members in the following
> > format:
> > >first.last at my.domain.com
> > >
> > >Is it possible to change the format to:
> > >first.last at my.domain.com
> >
> >
> > in the list admin intervace set Privacy options...->Subscription
> > rules->obscure_addresses to No.
> >
> > This will display the email address with '@' instead of ' at '. The
> > 'local part' of the address will be unchanged. If it is of form
> > first.last, it will be shown that way, but if it is of some other
> > form, it will be shown as whatever it is.
> >
> > --
> > Mark Sapiro < msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> > San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> >
> >
>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 01:01:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:01:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609010017.11978.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that 
>there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post 
>to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted. 


Yes, that would be an Exim config problem.


>Here are parts of my exim4 config:
<snip>
># Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
># you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
>domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com


And what about server.windfinder.com? And did you add it to
local_domains?


<snip>
>mailman_router:
>driver = accept
>require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
>local_part_suffix_optional
>local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
>-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
>-owner : -request : -admin
>transport = mailman_transport


The above is incomplete. It is not the cause of your problem, but see
<http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#roconf> for what the
mailman_router: should be. In particular, the above is missing
-confirm, -subscribe and -unsubscribe in local_part_suffix and is
missing
domains = +MAILMAN_DOMAINS to prevent mail to an address that looks
like a list but in another domain from being delivered to the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 01:22:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:22:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>

Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
>
>Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
>I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could
>do this for me. Or, am I missing something?


First, you want to put

DEFAULT_OBSCURE_ADDRESSES = No

in mm_cfg.py so new lists will be created with obscure_address = No.

Then you have two choices for existing lists, bin/withlist and
bin/config_list. config_list is easier to describe so, put the
following 1 line in a file

obscure_addresses = 0

and run a shell script like

#!/bin/sh
for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
do bin/config_list -i file $list
done

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:09:08 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:09:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
Message-ID: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted "Brad Knowles" 
<brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>:

>>  We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
>>  experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
>>  taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
>>  providing the software to their customers but *not* providing
>>  adequate support to those customers.
>
>  "unapproved" may be a bit strong.  Perhaps "un-vetted" would be closer?

Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most 
appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL, 
and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making 
their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise 
benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the 
source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not 
done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.

Now, in a way, Apple gives back to the project more than they 
probably realize, but that's not the same thing.


So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm 
actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

>>  I just recently wrote a FAQ entry on this subject -- see FAQ 1.32.
>
>  Quite nicely done!

Thanks!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:24:40 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:24:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:44 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  The point I was illustrating is that if you have to justify the rationale
>  behind a default setting to a third-party-decision-maker -- what is the most
>  appropriate and concise response?

This is the key point that was not coming across to me, at least not 
until much later in the exchange.  Speaking only for myself, I 
seriously misunderstood what you were asking and why, which greatly 
colored my responses.

I'm still not certain that we've given you the best answer to this 
question, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to synthesize something 
that you will then be able to contribute back to the community, and 
we will hopefully be able to avoid these kinds of problems in the 
future -- at least with respect to this one particular issue.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 01:21:10 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:21:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F729B6.7000507@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F729B6.7000507@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240507c11d1d076879@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:25 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  I view it differently. I have had great feedback and I highly doubt either
>  of the parties mentioned viewed a response as a "restraining, difficult
>  exercise". I /really/ use lists to their full advantage and with some in
>  particular have never felt my input or response was an exercise in patience
>  or restraint. It's a labour of love. You do it because it's what you do.

Maybe I'm getting better at this process than I have been in the 
past, but I most definitely held back quite a bit in my responses.  I 
did allow myself to get a bit testy, but that's about it.

It took me a while to realize that you were more playing devil's 
advocate (on behalf of your boss) as opposed to actually believing in 
some of the things you were saying.


And yes, a great deal of context is lost in e-mail.  Remember that 
about 90% of all human communication is not verbalized, and of the 
remainder about 90% is more in the tone of how you respond as opposed 
to the actual words that are chosen.  Pretty much all of that is lost 
in e-mail, leaving only the words -- and about 1% of what would 
normally be conveyed in a natural human conversation.

>  That's not to say I don't appreciate a response (some time after the fact)
>  with another avenue to explore (thanks Mark) but compare the difference
>  between "you're harping on about nothing" to "have you tried this?". The
>  latter (in hindsight) is blindingly obvious -- and yet no-one else let their
>  sub-conscious ponder the problem a while longer.

A lot of my responses were defensive in nature, responding to the way 
I felt that our entire community was being attacked, and I took that 
pretty personally.

As such, there really wasn't any time available for me to ponder the 
question in any more depth.  If I'd had that time, I might have been 
able to find a better way to convey what it was I was trying to get 
across.

Now, I may have managed to moderate my response quite a bit, but that 
doesn't change the fundamental nature of the situation as it occurred.

>  Lists are communities. And community isn't about 'gifts' from the elders or
>  sticking to sensible rules. It's about invigorating the elders so they feel
>  like children in a toy-store again.

It should be about enabling people to contribute something and allow 
them to feel useful, in whatever way that they find that they are 
best able to do.  We don't always succeed in that goal, however.  But 
as we work towards that goal, we should find that when everyone helps 
everyone else, we all benefit from the combined strength, and the 
result is much greater than the sum of its parts.

The big problem comes when a new person comes in, or a new situation 
occurs, and one or more members of the community feels like they are 
being attacked, and how they respond.  The result can either 
strengthen the enlarged community, or be extremely destructive.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 07:32:01 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:32:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted "Brad Knowles" 
 > <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>:
 > 
 > >>  We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
 > >>  experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
 > >>  taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
 > >>  providing the software to their customers but *not* providing
 > >>  adequate support to those customers.
 > >
 > >  "unapproved" may be a bit strong.  Perhaps "un-vetted" would be closer?
 > 
 > Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most 
 > appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL, 

Excuse me?  The GPL *explicitly* approves and authorizes (not to
mention implicitly encourages) modification and redistribution without
conditions other than providing source.  That's exactly what "license"
means.

Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

 > and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making 
 > their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise 
 > benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the 
 > source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not 
 > done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.

C'mon, Brad, you know what the GPL actually says.  They're supposed to
give the source to their customers.  That's all it says.

It is quite possible to write a license that says you *must* give your
modifications back to some entity.  You could argue that the reason
the GPL doesn't do that is that "the community" is the only
appropriate beneficiary, but it's impossible to legally define "the
community" in a satisfactory way.  But I don't think that's what
Richard Stallman has in mind when he declares licenses containing such
clauses "unfree".  Nor do they satisfy the DFSG or the OSD.  I believe
it's that the whole idea of demanding payment of any kind is unfree.

 > So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm 
 > actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

I would say we're not trying to accomplish by jawbone what we refuse
to put in the license.  And that's very important to me.  It's one of
the things I like best about this community.  Of course you're
certainly welcome to consider that you're being lenient; I'm simply
explaining that I very much appreciate your lenience, but I
rationalize it differently.

Once again, has anybody simply *asked* these companies for their code,
and maybe for some contribution of labor toward integrating it?  If
so, how recently?  I realize that we probably "dislike" some of their
changes, so they wouldn't make it into the mainline (at least not as
defaults), but it could exist on more or less deprecated branches.
Surely there are CPanel- or Plesk-using ISPs who would like to have
Mailman project support available to their customers; we should be
able to get moral, if not financial, support from them.

Sincere regards,
Steve




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 08:39:21 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:39:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:32 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  Excuse me?  The GPL *explicitly* approves and authorizes (not to
>  mention implicitly encourages) modification and redistribution without
>  conditions other than providing source.  That's exactly what "license"
>  means.

Right, and they haven't provided the source.

>  Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
>  been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
>  they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

I don't know about CPanel or Plesk, but I'd be willing to bet that 
they would not be willing to provide the source code to their changes 
to anyone, although a knowledgeable person could extract the source 
code differences by comparing what is shipped by the commercial 
vendor against our code, although it might take some work to figure 
out which version of our code they should be comparing against.

I'm pretty sure that I know what the answer would be from Apple.  You 
see, the primary problem is that the Server Group is totally and 
completely unresponsive to their own high-paying Platinum-account 
customers (i.e., major Universities and businesses with thousands or 
tens of thousands of machines), and likewise completely unresponsive 
even to internal people at Apple who are working in other groups.


You'd have to ask Barry as to whether or not he has actually 
contacted these groups to ask them to contribute their code changes 
back to the community, or if anyone has gone to the FSF lawyers to 
have them send a letter requesting that the company in question honor 
their obligations under the GPL.

I just don't have the answers to the questions you're asking me.


Moreover, I don't think that it's reasonable for you to respond to me 
in this manner.  What have I ever done to you?  When have I ever said 
anything that would lead you to believe that I would have the kinds 
of answers you require to these extremely loaded questions you're 
asking?


If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware 
that I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of 
GPL types, so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

But if you want to argue the finer points of the GPL with someone, my 
response is going to be that none of this would be a problem if 
they'd just use a BSD-like license instead and then be done with it.

As such, I'm not going to be your foil for your GPL holy war, and if 
you want that then you would be better off looking elsewhere.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 08:47:54 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:47:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <p0624050fc11d87de72b1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:39 AM -0500 2006-09-01, Brad Knowles wrote:

>  If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware that
>  I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of GPL types,
>  so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

Sorry, I meant "... stay pretty quiet".  That was a bad typo to have 
in such a place.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 11:36:31 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:36:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>
	<p06240508c11d1fba0a8a@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F7FF1F.1080008@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/01 01:24 AM:
> This is the key point that was not coming across to me, at least not
> until much later in the exchange.  Speaking only for myself, I seriously
> misunderstood what you were asking and why, which greatly colored my
> responses.

My apologies, I could have been clearer. I did try and fork the thread with
the inclusion of (devils advocate!) in the subject line.

> I'm still not certain that we've given you the best answer to this
> question, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to synthesize something
> that you will then be able to contribute back to the community, and we
> will hopefully be able to avoid these kinds of problems in the future --
> at least with respect to this one particular issue.

I may not have what I was looking specifically, but I do have a clearer of
how to approach things in future.

I've had to edit context significantly for various reasons (brevity being
one) but it comes down this. We've had a solution in place for 10 years that
just works but doesn't offer us the functionality we need or clients want
any more. I've been on mailman run lists for ~6 years and found the setup to
be more useful and when the time came for a new server had to make a number
of decisions based on skills available, difference in volumes of legitimate
mail and spam today (compared to setup of ageing server from 96) and new
things to be learnt using a different OS and architecture.

A mistake appears to be the perception (prior to installation and initial
use phase) that Mailman was Majordomo with a web-gui and archives. It's not.
It's a different product and approach entirely. This realisation is hammered
home in the implementation of Mailman -- but not easily visible when
researching alternative solutions to the previous way we did things.

Such a mistaken perception is echoed both up to management and down to users
in selling the solution. You get approval, go ahead and implement and then
there this "oops" moment and realisation you didn't have all the knowledge
to begin with, and sold management and users a solution you just couldn't
(at the time) anticipate certain problems with. So it's your head on the
block and you either have to wing it or come up with an explanation that
satisfies both users and management without too much trouble in the process.

Just as an example, some list-owners have pending administrative request
queues numbering in the hundreds already. No amount of prodding or pushing
or assisting helps them just to complete a small and easy daily task.
Feedback is "my prior list didn't bother me with stuff" or "Oh, I used to
just ignore that stuff anyway". Horse --> water situation.

Additionally in terms of the historical setup, things with majordomo were
already highly customised to our needs, and when I came in I
assumed/took-for-granted this was the default (old system has even worse
documentation than anything else I've seen <chuckles>) and also assumed
thing would be echoed in the Mailman setup. My mistake, but during the "ask
around for suggestions" phase most of the feedback I got was Mailman
orientated, like the move is just a casual change in clothes. It's not :-)

Now despite my mixed positive/negative reactions to documentation and
feedback from the list, and growing growing appreciation of why certain
things were done a certain way, neither users or management have the time to
sift through the same volume of information to reach a satisfactory
conclusion. Instead you get a very offensive response due to resistance to
change, or new variables.

You see the following doesn't cut it in that situation:

 * but we can change it
 * we can modify the source if we need to
 * that's the way the developers chose to do it
 * the documentation was lacking

In an environment where someone has to take responsibility for a situation,
even if it's not their fault as such, providing the best answer to users or
management can go two ways. Shift the blame, or fix the problem -- even if
it means undoing the best practices suggested and letting users/management
realise for themselves why it's a bad idea. But in some environments you
just can't afford to do this.

So far I've discovered that yes, most of the safe defaults are the best
desired functionality. And that on a Debian/Exim setup it's best to install
from source, and if using virtual domains to install a separate installation
of mailman per domain. The additional overhead on the box isn't that much
for ~20 domains. It might be for more than that though. I've also found the
documentation to be scattered but where there is info that can be
referenced, it's generally pretty good.

Once we have a stable system that meets the needs of users and management
I'll be happy to share the setup of how we've done it in our particular way
along with some rationale behind the different decisions based both on what
I've learnt on this list, and from user/management feedback.

Obviously every installation is in a different environment, and as has been
mentioned Mailman isn't a one-stop-solution-for-all-situations solution.
There is also a lot of public misconception about Mailman in general --
things you only realise when you're actually implementing it on a box or run
into trouble. I doubt anyone is to blame for this -- there are simply too
many variables involved.

I'd suggest to anyone looking at Mailman as a solution search the
docs/FAQ/list-archives, *and* join the list and ask a few questions before
actually implementing. It's a lot easier to anticipate certain things that
way. :-)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose
of common sense." - Chapman Cohen


From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 11:51:30 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:51:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/01 08:39 AM:
> If you want to get into a diatribe about licensing, please be aware 
> that I'm a BSD guy, and I've found myself surrounded by a bunch of 
> GPL types, so license-wise I've tended to say pretty quiet.

Note, the issues raised are not unique to Mailman or other popular GPL
products. There is an undercurrent of concern over how Ubuntu is building on
Dedian but not necessarily contributing back, and developer dissatisfaction
at the Debian level moving to the more trendy and dynamic Ubuntu front.

The GPL approach has obviously been useful (and popular) but I find many
'just solve the problem' type individuals seem to favour the BSD approach.
Kind of "you're welcome to use and modify, just don't blame us for any
consequences", whereas with the GPL it's more about a zealous popular
uprising against corporate overlords.

I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, but there
might be a case of 'good manners' at play in that it is polite to do so. I'm
sure developers welcome input even if they choose not to include it in the
primary code distribution.

One can however approach someone who has modified the source and request the
modified source but there may be trouble getting a diff version of the
modifications made and reasons why.

However it's probably a case of motivation. Developers would need to be
motivated to chase one of the organisations mentioned and it would be
time-consuming and require effort when they might prefer to be coding.
Obviously a gap here for a champion from within the user base to pursue the
matter further.

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"To teach a man how he may learn to grow independently, and for himself, is
perhaps the greatest service that one man can do another." - Benjamin Jowett


From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 13:40:49 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:40:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <E1GJ694-0005Ka-9R@scyw00225.scy001.de>
References: <200609010022.35450.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<E1GJ694-0005Ka-9R@scyw00225.scy001.de>
Message-ID: <200609011340.50213.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 12:21, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:22:35 +0200, Oliver K?nig <k.oliver at t-online.de>
>
> wrote:
> >/var/log/exim4/mainlog:
> >2006-09-01 00:00:52 H=mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]
> >F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay
> >not permitted
>
> if mailout01.sul.t-online.com is your smarthost, then that box doesn't
> like to relay for you. Please note that T-Online has a rather severe
> daily mail volume limit and thus you won't have much fun with running
> a mailing list server via the T-Online mail servers.
>
> Additional to that, please make sure to read the documentation that
> came with your Debian package. May I ask how you managed to miss the
> pointers to the Debian specific mailing list and where you found the
> pointer to exim-users?
>
> Greetings
> Marc
Sorry, I forgot to say that I actually read /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.EXIM 
and changed my config. Still could not fix the problem:

This is my actual configuration:
/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py:
[..]
# Default domain for email addresses of newly created MLs
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'server.windfinder.com'
[..]
------
/etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template (accepted after exim4 restart):
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory.
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  transport = mailman_transport

[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP
[..]
-----

When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog says:
2006-09-01 13:37:27 H=mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>: relay 
not permitted

Any idea how to allow postings from subscribers? Thanks.

Oliver


From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 14:09:47 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:09:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
> been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
> they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

I asked cPanel a few years ago.  I got the run-around and they closed
the support ticket 2 or 3 times without providing any source or diffs.
Only after persisting did they send me a link to a half-assed diff
that I know didn't match all that they changed.

I've since had the displeasure of working on a cPanel hosted system
and there is a source directory for mailman.  If anyone's really
curious, I'll diff it against whatever the official source release
they're claiming it is.

They may be honoring the letter of the license, but they deserve the
shit they get here for abusing the spirit of it so badly.  If I made
changes to Mailman that caused a regular stream of frequently asked
questions I'd fix the problems or get involved in helping answer them
just so I could sleep at night.  cPanel doesn't do that and they are
charging folks good money to package up free software.  That leaves a
bad taste in *my* mouth, and I'm not even a significant contributor to
Mailman.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
The more laws, the less justice.
    -- Marcus Tullius Cicero "De Officiis", 44 B.C.

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From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 14:22:33 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:22:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>

Hello Marc,
thanks for your feedback. I have been trying to get it working for several 
weeks.

On Friday 01 September 2006 01:01, you wrote:
> Oliver K?nig wrote:
> >I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that
> >there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot
> > post to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted.
>
> Yes, that would be an Exim config problem.
>
> >Here are parts of my exim4 config:
>
> <snip>
>
> ># Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
> ># you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
> >domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com
>
> And what about server.windfinder.com? And did you add it to
> local_domains?
Just added it:
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com : news.server.windfinder.com

After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non mailman 
mail):

/var/log/exim4/mainlog
2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=11314
2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:39:26 socket bind() to port 25 for address (any IPv4) failed: 
Address already in use: waiting before trying again
2006-09-01 10:39:49 1GJ4Z3-0004pq-Mi <= oliver at windfinder.com 
H=p548de4f5.dip.t-dialin.net ([192.168.0.2]) [84.141.228.245] P=esmtpsa 
X=TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32 A=plain_courier_authdaemon:oliver S=1609 
id=200609011039.15788.oliver at windfinder.com
2006-09-01 10:39:49 1GJ4Z3-0004pq-Mi unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:39:56 socket bind() to port 25 for address (any IPv4) failed: 
Address already in use: waiting before trying again
2006-09-01 10:40:01 1GJ4ZF-0004wl-Sf <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=752
2006-09-01 10:40:01 1GJ4ZF-0004wl-Sf unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"
2006-09-01 10:40:02 1GJ4ZG-0004wv-6z <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user 
P=local S=737
2006-09-01 10:40:02 1GJ4ZG-0004wv-6z unknown named domain 
list "+MAILMAN_domains"


> <snip>
>
> >mailman_router:
> >driver = accept
> >require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
> >local_part_suffix_optional
> >local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
> >-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
> >-owner : -request : -admin
> >transport = mailman_transport
>
> The above is incomplete. It is not the cause of your problem, but see
> <http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#roconf> for what the
> mailman_router: should be. In particular, the above is missing
> -confirm, -subscribe and -unsubscribe in local_part_suffix and is
> missing
> domains = +MAILMAN_DOMAINS to prevent mail to an address that looks
> like a list but in another domain from being delivered to the list.

I changed this according tohttp://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html to:
[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
   driver = accept
   domains = +MAILMAN_domains
   require_files = MAILMAN_LISTCHK
   local_part_suffix_optional
   local_part_suffix = -admin     : \
-bounces   : -bounces+* : \
                       -confirm   : -confirm+* : \
-join      : -leave     : \
-owner    : -request   : \
-subscribe : -unsubscribe
   transport = mailman_transport
[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 14:30:31 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:30:31 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > I just don't have the answers to the questions you're asking me.

That's fine.

 > Moreover, I don't think that it's reasonable for you to respond to me 
 > in this manner.  What have I ever done to you?

Since you ask, lots of nice things.  I've certainly benefited from
your contributions to these lists and the FAQ.  Thank you!

I'm not sure what you mean by "manner", but the reason I responded is
that I got triggered by the juxtaposition of "us vs. them" language
with "GPL".  I agree that there's a justification for a feeling of "us
vs. them" between Mailman and the companies mentioned, but in my
experience the GPL normally contributes to such antagonism, and I've
never seen the GPL help alleviate it.  So I want the GPL out of the
discussion (unless the companies are in violation of their license,
which seems possible---that's why I asked for evidence).

 > When have I ever said anything that would lead you to believe that
 > I would have the kinds of answers you require

Aren't you the guy who was there when the Postel Principle was coined?
<wink>  You're right, I should ask Barry, but Barry's not here right
now that I can see, and you usually do have answers, good answers.

 > to these extremely loaded questions you're asking?

What's loaded about the questions?  True, my phrasing assumed that you
probably knew the answers to the questions, but I didn't mean to imply
any obligation for you to know them.

Your post asks for more than the GPL does.  I agree that it would be
good if these companies would participate actively in the community.
But I'm more confused than ever why you cited the GPL in support of
that, since you write:

 > But if you want to argue the finer points of the GPL with someone, my 
 > response is going to be that none of this would be a problem if 
 > they'd just use a BSD-like license instead and then be done with
 > it.

 > As such, I'm not going to be your foil for your GPL holy war, and if 
 > you want that then you would be better off looking elsewhere.

All I want w.r.t. the GPL is that downstream do what it explicitly
demands, since that is the license Mailman uses.

And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
companies, to improve support for not a few users.

Steve




From franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in  Fri Sep  1 15:24:50 2006
From: franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in (Francis Jayakanth)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:54:50 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>


We have been using Mailman software for almost 6 years now without much of
a problem. Occasionally, some of our subscribers complain that they do not
receive mails from the mailman list. What I have been doing as a list
moderator in such situations is, deleting the existing id of such a user
and re-create the same id. Many-a-times this solution has worked. However,
it doesn't work for particular user. I have re-created the id for this
user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
mails.  what do u think could be the problem. we are using 2.1.3, which
quite out-dated as compared to the latest version, 2.1.8 I will be
upgrading the version shortly.

Many thanks,

 - Francis



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 14:58:41 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:58:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
 > > Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and
 > > been refused?  Or one of their customers, and been refused because
 > > they were under NDA?  If we haven't asked, how can we bitch?

 > [...]
 > I've since had the displeasure of working on a cPanel hosted system
 > and there is a source directory for mailman.  If anyone's really
 > curious, I'll diff it against whatever the official source release
 > they're claiming it is.

If you actually do have the right to do so, yes, please.  If nobody
else wants it, feel free to send it to me personally, and I'll stick
it up on a website and post an URL in the FAQ.  It ought to be
available for the benefit of cPanel users who might be able to use it,
even if we're not going to use any of it in Mailman itself.

 > They may be honoring the letter of the license,

And then again, they may not be.  Checking the source will help to
figure that out.

Cheers,
Steve



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 14:52:32 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:52:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060901115140.GA25158@www.lobefin.net>
References: <200609010022.35450.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<200609011340.50213.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<20060901115140.GA25158@www.lobefin.net>
Message-ID: <200609011452.32855.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 13:51, Stephen Gran wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 01:40:49PM +0200, Oliver K?nig said:
> > When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog says:
> > 2006-09-01 13:37:27 H=mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84]
> > F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <news at server.windfinder.com>:
> > relay not permitted
> >
> > Any idea how to allow postings from subscribers? Thanks.
>
> It sounds to me like you don't have +MAILMAN_DOMAINS in any accept
> statements in your rcpt acl.  I would just add it to one of the verify =
> recipient stanzas towards the end of the rcpt acl (given a stock
> configuration).

Hello Stephen,
thanks for for reply. I added +MAILMAN_DOMAINS whereever I thought it might 
help. I am still getting the same error: relay not permitted. Here are 
excerpts from my exim config:
[..]
.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = DEBCONFlocal_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS : MAILMAN_DOMAINS : 
server.windfinder.com

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = DEBCONFrelay_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = DEBCONFrelay_netsDEBCONF
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS
[..]
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory, see: /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.exim.
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

# Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
# you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com
#
# -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
#
# These values are derived from the ones above and should not need
# editing unless you have munged your mailman installation
#
# The path of the list config file (used as a required file when
# verifying list addresses)
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck

[..]
begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  domains = server.windfinder.com : MAILMAN_DOMAINS
  transport = mailman_transport

[..]
  # Accept if the address is in a local domain, but only if the recipient can
  # be verified. Otherwise deny. The "endpass" line is the border between
  # passing on to the next ACL statement (if tests above it fail) or denying
  # access (if tests below it fail).
  #
  accept
    domains = +local_domains : +MAILMAN_DOMAINS
    endpass
    message = unknown user
    verify = recipient


  # Accept if the address is in a domain for which we are relaying, but again,
  # only if the recipient can be verified.
  #
  # If you want to use the more conservative "unknown user" error
  # message in case of a non-existing local part, you might want to
  # set CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER. However, this might reveal
  # local information, which is the cause for it not being enabled by
  # default.
  accept
    domains = +relay_to_domains : +MAILMAN_DOMAINS
    endpass
    .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER
    message = ${if eq{$acl_verify_message}{Unrouteable address}{unknown user}
{$acl_verify_message}}
    .else
    message = unrouteable address
    .endif
    verify = recipient

[..]
begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP

Regards,
Oliver


From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 16:00:08 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:00:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> If you actually do have the right to do so, yes, please.

I do, AFAIK.  Mailman is GPL'd and I have legitimate root access on
that system so I have access to the source code.  AIUI, the GPL
doesn't permit them to restrict what I do with the source that I get.
So it's tough titties for cPanel if they don't like me sharing it with
the rest of the world. :)

The diff is rather large and messy.  The source dir on cpanel seems to
include a build dir with the mailman bin/ utils in it along with some
of the stuff from contrib and cron.  There are also various remnants
of the build process (config.status, Makefiles, etc) strewn about --
perhaps to discourage anyone from using the source easily. :)

In the interests of completeness, I've not excluded any of that from
the diff, so it's rather large (~ 7MB unzipped)!  This source came
from /usr/local/cpanel/src/3rdparty/gpl/mailman-2.1.7 on a cpanel
system.

The diff:

    http://pobox.com/~tmz/mailman-2.1.7-cpanel.diff.bz2 (1.7MB)

Let me know if you want any other info from the cpanel system and I'll
do my best to get it for you.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
The only reason we still have elections in this country is to see if
the pollsters were right.
    -- Ed Rollins

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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:14:37 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:14:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010714t1c5ac7b0q24026401fa6c2dd4@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Francis Jayakanth <franc at ncsi.iisc.ernet.in> wrote:
>
> We have been using Mailman software for almost 6 years now without much of
> a problem. Occasionally, some of our subscribers complain that they do not
> receive mails from the mailman list. What I have been doing as a list

My guess here would be that it's bounce processing. You can check
mailman's 'bounce' logs to see if this is, in fact, the case.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:21:53 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:21:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
latest standard versions)

I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
to subscribers!!

The volume is only small now, as we are testing with only three people..

I have searched this list, but can not find an answer for slow
delivery times on systems where mail volume is very low.

If you have a clue what I could be missing, I would LOVE to get your advice.

Thank you
Mal


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:24:42 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:24:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> latest standard versions)
What MTA are you using?

> I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> to subscribers!!
Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From heinrich at esono.de  Fri Sep  1 16:53:19 2006
From: heinrich at esono.de (Heinrich, Maximilian)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:53:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help: Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,
	_GOT_gid_110
Message-ID: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112CFED@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>

Hello again,

thanks for your help so far with the strange
unable-to-determine-caller's-group-id-thing. In fact I found out that
the problem was that the either qmail or mailman expected the GID of
user "popuser" to be 110. (it was 30). So I changed that by changing the
GID in /etc/group and /etc/passwd to 110 and by performing this

find / -gid 30 -print -exec chgrp 110 {} \; >gid30to110.log

so far so good. NOW I get at least no "deferral" but "success" delivery
message in my qmail log but with this error behind it:

delivery 890: success:
Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,_GOT_gid_110./Failed_to_start_/usr
/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/

:'-( (gid 12 == mail)

Since using a combination of Suse9.3, PLESK and a (obviously?) special
distribution of mailmnan that comes with this combination I'm not able
to compile this with those funky parameters like -with-mail-gid=12 or
something. 

What can I do? Thanks in advance - Regards Maxi


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 16:52:46 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:52:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <p06240511c11df94e08e0@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:54 PM +0530 2006-09-01, Francis Jayakanth wrote:

>                                      I have re-created the id for this
>  user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
>  mails.  what do u think could be the problem. we are using 2.1.3, which
>  quite out-dated as compared to the latest version, 2.1.8 I will be
>  upgrading the version shortly.

What's in the Mailman logs?  What's in the MTA logs?  Can you get the 
MTA logs from the other side, and then compare that to your MTA logs?

We've got some instructions in the FAQ that should help you track 
down e-mail delivery problems.  Have you searched the FAQ for 
"troubleshooting"?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:01:36 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:01:36 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patrick,
Thank you very much for your reply.

> What MTA are you using?
Postfix latest version.

Checking the logs that you suggested, I found the cause for this
delay, however, do not know how to get around it...

When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!

Does anyone know why that could be?  Is it confusing my isp's smtp server???

Thank you for your help.
Mal



On 01/09/06, Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> > latest standard versions)
> What MTA are you using?
>
> > I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> > mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> > to subscribers!!
> Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
> when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
> qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
> 'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.
>
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
>


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Fri Sep  1 17:04:11 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:04:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>

* Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:

> When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
> isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
> However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
> same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
> my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!

You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
VERY long.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:03:43 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:03:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17656.10215.46422.826213@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p06240512c11dfb6f8890@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:30 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  Your post asks for more than the GPL does.  I agree that it would be
>  good if these companies would participate actively in the community.
>  But I'm more confused than ever why you cited the GPL in support of
>  that, since you write:

I'm not really citing the GPL, at least not per se.  I know what the 
GPL actually requires, but as far as I'm concerned any changes that 
are made without being approved by Barry or filtered back into the 
community would qualify as "unapproved".

>  All I want w.r.t. the GPL is that downstream do what it explicitly
>  demands, since that is the license Mailman uses.

If they were willing to do that, I'd be reasonably happy.

>  And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
>  companies, to improve support for not a few users.

That's a good idea, but that's another issue for Barry.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:07:58 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:07:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Ralf,

> You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
> VERY long.

thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all..
Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?



On 02/09/06, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> * Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:
>
> > When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
> > isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
> > However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
> > same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
> > my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
> You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
> VERY long.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:09:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:09:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
Message-ID: <p06240514c11dfd05e7a1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:04 PM +0200 2006-09-01, Ralf Hildebrandt quoted maltokyo at gmail.com:

>>  When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
>>  isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
>>  However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
>>  same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
>>  my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
>  You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
>  VERY long.

I would hope that the situation is that simple.

The other problem is that the ISP might be incompetent, and the 
queues are relatively small but very poorly managed, and the result 
is that the messages are delayed a long time -- but for no good 
reason.


Either way, it sounds like you need to talk to your ISP about this 
problem, because they're the only ones that are going to be able to 
help you.  The only other alternative is to find a different provider.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:11:17 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:11:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>Just added it:
>domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com : news.server.windfinder.com
>
>After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non mailman
>mail):
<snip>
>2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain
>list "+MAILMAN_domains"
<snip>
>I changed this according tohttp://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html to:
>[..]
>begin routers
>
>mailman_router:
>   driver = accept
>   domains = +MAILMAN_domains
>   require_files = MAILMAN_LISTCHK
>   local_part_suffix_optional
>   local_part_suffix = -admin     : \
>-bounces   : -bounces+* : \
>                       -confirm   : -confirm+* : \
>-join      : -leave     : \
>-owner    : -request   : \
>-subscribe : -unsubscribe
>   transport = mailman_transport

You seem to have case issues here, i.e., MAILMAN_DOMAINS vs.
MAILMAN_domains. The documentation shows this all lower case. I don't
know if that is significant or not, but it may be.

Also, you don't indicate whether or not you have server.windfinder.com
and news.server.windfinder.com in local_domains. If not, I think this
is the cause of your relaying problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:12:35 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:12:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010812l56bece90y2ed418516050c211@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all..
> Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?

If your ISP allows it, you might try configuring your postfix to NOT
use the ISP as a smart relay, and just attempt to deliver mail
locally.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 17:15:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:15:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:07 AM +0900 2006-09-02, Mal quoted Ralf Hildebrandt:

>>  You ISPs mailserver could have a huge queue, thus delivery may take
>>  VERY long.
>
>  thanks for the hint, but other mails are getting in with no delay at all.

That's the joy of e-mail -- messages you sent an hour ago might still 
be in the queue, while messages that you send now may go through 
immediately, even if they are to the exact same destination.

There are a lot of factors involved, and the only people who can 
really help you answer the question of what is wrong and how it might 
be fixed are the people who administer that system -- your ISP.

>  Anyone else tried to send mails from same smtp server that your MTA uses?

If you're using a webmail system from your ISP, you don't have any 
control over the MTA that is used by the webmail system.


Everything boils down to the fact that you need to talk to your ISP 
and see what's going on and why, and what might be done about it.

We might be able to speculate and suggest potential alternatives 
based on the speculations, but that's about as far as anyone here can 
go.

You need real answers, and the only person (or people) who can 
possibly provide those answers is/are at your ISP.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 17:28:27 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:28:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > I do, AFAIK.  Mailman is GPL'd and I have legitimate root access on
 > that system so I have access to the source code.  AIUI, the GPL
 > doesn't permit them to restrict what I do with the source that I
 > get.

You have to actually receive a distribution to have GPL rights.
Merely having access to somebody else's copy is not enough.  The
system owner can indeed tell you what uses you are and are not
allowed, just as a cashier has legitimate access to the contents of
the cash register, but isn't allowed to just share out the change to
anybody who comes along.



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:23:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:23:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] peculiar problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0609011852050.452@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010823120093566fed09@msapiro>

Francis Jayakanth wrote:
>
>What I have been doing as a list
>moderator in such situations is, deleting the existing id of such a user
>and re-create the same id. Many-a-times this solution has worked. 


I don't know why this would make a difference unless delivery was
disabled for that user and deleting and recreating had the effect of
enabling delivery.


>However,
>it doesn't work for particular user. I have re-created the id for this
>user at least 5 times but still the user in question doesn't get mailman
>mails.  what do u think could be the problem.


The user or her/his ISP could be filtering or blocking the mail from
your mailman installation based on any number of factors. Can you
successfully send non-Mailman mail to this user from the same domain
as Mailman sends from?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From maltokyo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:26:01 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:26:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@10.0.1.210>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060901150411.GS12926@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609010807j4a829a23w9c7eb875904b628@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240515c11dfdfd21ce@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609010826y45698dbxac7104c5815c19dd@mail.gmail.com>

OK!  Thank you, Ill ask the isp.  Thanks for the suggestions at the
start, it really helped me pinpoint the problem, even though it doesnt
seem to be mailman!


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 17:29:39 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:29:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine did speak thusly:

>I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
>a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, but there
>might be a case of 'good manners' at play in that it is polite to do so. I'm
>sure developers welcome input even if they choose not to include it in the
>primary code distribution.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Disclaimer: I am not a licensed attorney and this is not to be 
construed as legal advice.

Have you actually read the GPL?

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt

There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3 
that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided 
either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request 
to ANY third party that requests it. Section 2 also plays heavily 
into this situation.

Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for 
source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

And while we are on the subject of the GPL, sections 11 and 12 
basically state that there is absolutely no warranty for the fitness 
or suitability of a GPL program and that your use of a program under 
the license is entirely at your own risk.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 17:35:01 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:35:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> You have to actually receive a distribution to have GPL rights.
> Merely having access to somebody else's copy is not enough.

The system owner most certainly allows me to access and use the source
that he was provided as part of the cPanel installation.  If you have
reason to believe that there are other factors which would prohibit
the system owner from sharing that source code, feel free to point
those out.  But of course, I've already posted the diff and don't plan
to retract it. ;)

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a
virtue.  Fleas are interested in dogs.
    -- P.J. O'Rourke

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From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 17:40:19 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:40:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of  posted mails
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<aeb5a27f0609010801i199aacc1sbd784a0c3cb81196@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901083647.0125c508@crimson-dragon.com>

Mal did speak thusly:
>Dear Patrick,
>Thank you very much for your reply.
>
> > What MTA are you using?
>Postfix latest version.
>
>Checking the logs that you suggested, I found the cause for this
>delay, however, do not know how to get around it...
>
>When I am sending mails to the list from any other smtp server than my
>isp's (from webmail etc), the delivery is instant!
>However, when I send a mail from my isp's smtp server (which is the
>same smtp that postfix is using to send all mails that are posted to
>my list), then delivery takes about 1 hour!!
>
>Does anyone know why that could be?  Is it confusing my isp's smtp server???
>
>Thank you for your help.
>Mal
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Sounds like they have implemented greylisting as an anti-spam measure 
and have set the retry period to an hour.

Do you see anything in your MTA logs that looks something like this?

reject=451 4.7.1 Greylisting in action, please come back in 00:10:00


If so, you need to get with their sysadmin and have them whitelist 
your mailman server.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:42:17 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:42:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240512c11dfb6f8890@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 9:30 PM +0900 2006-09-01, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
>
>>  And maybe Mailman should consider asking for source code from these
>>  companies, to improve support for not a few users.
>
>That's a good idea, but that's another issue for Barry.


FWIW, I only this week discovered that Apple has Mailman source code on
it's web site.

I found the following quote somewhat ironic -

  Apple uses software created by the Open Source community, such as the
  HTML rendering engine for Safari, and returns its enhancements to the
  community.

(<http://www.apple.com/opensource/>)

Anyway, if you go to <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/>
and follow any of the "Mac OS X 10.3  Darwin 7.0" or later "source"
links you will find links to Mailman source. I don't know whether this
is Apple modified source or just our source. I haven't had time to
investigate this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk  Fri Sep  1 17:27:31 2006
From: R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk (Robert Bannocks)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:27:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up mailman
Message-ID: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDA87@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>

Hi,  
 
A few simple questions.
 
I want to run mail man as part of the main name space, i.e.
listnames at nhm.ac.uk, however the machine it runs on will be called
someother.nhm.ac.uk, and 
the alias I want for the web front end will be lists.nhm.ac.uk.  Am I
correct in doing this by setting the following variables in
~mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py
 
and that this will acheive the following
 
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'nhm.ac.uk'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.nhm.ac.uk'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

 
1.  When users go to http://lists.nhm.ac.uk, they will be able to view
the lists
2.  mail from the lists will come from listname at nhm.ac.uk
 
Thanks 
 
RB
 
 
 


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:51:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:51:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F7FF1F.1080008@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010851360468c2517f58@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:
>
>Just as an example, some list-owners have pending administrative request
>queues numbering in the hundreds already. No amount of prodding or pushing
>or assisting helps them just to complete a small and easy daily task.
>Feedback is "my prior list didn't bother me with stuff" or "Oh, I used to
>just ignore that stuff anyway". Horse --> water situation.


FYI, in case you missed it, beginning with 2.1.6 there is a
max_days_to_hold list setting and the corresponding
DEFAULT_MAX_DAYS_TO_HOLD mm_cfg.py setting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 17:52:17 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:52:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20608292119l4adeb132y77ad1f534e5c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34a783b20608292119l4adeb132y77ad1f534e5c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>

Answering my own question, on the off-chance somebody else now or in
the future cares...

On 8/29/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:

> What I think I want to do is leave the new/current mailing list, and
> its archives, alone, and put up the old archives in my web space.  (A
> more aggressive approach would be to try to attach my old archives to
> the beginning of the new/current archive, so everything would be in
> one place.  That would require a lot of reliance on Dreamhost tech
> support, since I don't have access to those files/directories, and
> they might not even be willing to do it.)
>
> So, what executables and configuration settings are key to this?  I
> need to run "arch", it looks like, and have a mailing list configured
> that will define where it puts the resulting HTML files.  Maybe also
> stuff to make the page templates match the rest of the website (I did
> that for the ezmlm-cgi version).   And I only have to do this once
> (just to convert the old archives, static, no more messages).

I've made significant progress on this.  I built a private copy of
mailman, to run under my username (never to actually be connected to
incoming email; just so that I can create and configure lists and run
arch on them).

The configure command I used was:

./configure --with-username=ddb --with-groupname=ddb --prefix=/home/ddb/mailman

I can create a list with bin/newlist, and I can then run bin/arch and
import mbox list archives, and it builds web pages that serve up just
fine.

I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
mailman.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 17:55:16 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:55:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
Message-ID: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>

It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
archives that mailman generates.  Perhaps, ideally, a different one
for the individual message files and for the various index files.
Perhaps there could be a default one that was put in by default (it
could be pretty much null), and then each list could be configured to
use a specific other one if the list owner wanted.  This gives a LOT
of flexibility to spruce up (and make conform to site style) the
appearance of the archives, for very little (it seems to me) work by
the Mailman developers.

The other thing is that the various sections of the messages would
need to be tagged in appropriate ways to make the style sheets more
able to access individual bits.

How do people go about fitting the archives into their site style now?  Frames?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 17:59:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:59:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010859220765c516ae73@msapiro>

Todd Zullinger wrote:
>
>The source dir on cpanel seems to
>include a build dir with the mailman bin/ utils in it along with some
>of the stuff from contrib and cron.

The build directory is created by configure and contains 'configured'
versions of the scripts.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 18:07:46 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 01:07:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Todd Zullinger writes:

 > If you have reason to believe that there are other factors which
 > would prohibit the system owner from sharing that source code,
 > feel free to point those out.

There are none to worry about, except that he/she arbitrarily decides
he/she doesn't want to.

I'm just concerned that sharing might not be the intention of the
system owner.



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 18:11:13 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:11:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901120947.GI4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.11905.911801.990302@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901140008.GJ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.20891.795544.237969@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20060901153501.GK4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<17656.23250.67763.76038@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20060901161113.GM4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

stephen at xemacs.org wrote:
> I'm just concerned that sharing might not be the intention of the
> system owner.

No problem.  Sharing this source code is perfectly fine with the
system owner.  I know him well enough to know that implicitly.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route.

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V51V6S6VQQPmprg2nPWiP9do6Kdrq+JTKEetri4ZoyxnXlinZP0C5EUZ3OWNWl38
yT7sojobP0PppWZ3OYU1cYzaYPwQXAweRh3M6fIFnwxqPTAPl9y/o1pT0BC8uhjq
3CDDupqjlruhRrOtTn7uZNlVwVVTOjLmXoF0lauCZLOVrXjeDwQ=
=NhZz
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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:19:40 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:19:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609010919v28785836j8a4f0d36c50bff80@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
> It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
> archives that mailman generates.  Perhaps, ideally, a different one
> for the individual message files and for the various index files.
> Perhaps there could be a default one that was put in by default (it
> could be pretty much null), and then each list could be configured to
> use a specific other one if the list owner wanted.  This gives a LOT
> of flexibility to spruce up (and make conform to site style) the
> appearance of the archives, for very little (it seems to me) work by
> the Mailman developers.

It's actually a fair but of work, because all of the static HTML has
to be modified to make use of CSS classes, etc., and they'd need to
remove all of the formatting and put it into a CSS file.

That said, fill out and/or check for an RFE at <http://sf.net/projects/mailman>

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:25:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:25:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up mailman
In-Reply-To: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDA87@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010925540515781d76b9@msapiro>

Robert Bannocks wrote:
> 
>I want to run mail man as part of the main name space, i.e.
>listnames at nhm.ac.uk, however the machine it runs on will be called
>someother.nhm.ac.uk, and 
>the alias I want for the web front end will be lists.nhm.ac.uk.  Am I
>correct in doing this by setting the following variables in
>~mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py
> 
>and that this will acheive the following
> 
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'nhm.ac.uk'
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.nhm.ac.uk'
>DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
>VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

As long as this is followed by

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)


>1.  When users go to http://lists.nhm.ac.uk, they will be able to view
>the lists


This will require appropriate configuration of your webserver.
Normally, you would go to a URL like http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/.
If you want http://lists.nhm.ac.uk to go to the listinfo overview, but
you want to access various Mailman CGIs as
http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/admindb/listname, etc. then the above
is OK and for Apache as an example, you would put something like the
following in the lists.nhm.ac.uk section of httpd.conf

ScriptAlias /mailman/       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/
Alias   /pipermail/     /path/to/mailman/archives/public/
RedirectMatch ^[/]+$   http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo

If you don't want to use 'mailman' in the URLs at all, e.g., go to URLs
like http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/admindb/listname, you need something like

ScriptAlias /       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/
Alias   /pipermail/     /path/to/mailman/archives/public/
RedirectMatch ^[/]+$   http://lists.nhm.ac.uk/listinfo

And you need 

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/'

in mm_cfg.py.


>2.  mail from the lists will come from listname at nhm.ac.uk

Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:30:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:30:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
>archives that mailman generates.

See <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Summer+of+Code>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep  1 17:47:39 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:47:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has
 implicit destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>

Dragon said the following on 2006/09/01 05:29 PM:
> Have you actually read the GPL?
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt

yes plus variations ;-)

> There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3
> that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided
> either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request to
> ANY third party that requests it. 

Yes, but that's not what I said. I said there was no obligation to send
changes back to original developers, but that it was polite to do so.
Obviously, if the original developers ask for the changes then yes, but if
they've failed to do so there is no obligation.
(The feedback appears to indicate that they have asked however)

In fact I can take GPL code, modify it and use it internally without either
the original developers or any third party knowing I've done so. I'm under
zero obligation to inform anyone of my actions or changes. If however I
start distributing the changed code it must be done so under the same
licence, and upon request I must make the source available.

There is no obligation for me to indicate what I changed from an original
code base (code or docs) only an obligation for me to provide the source
*on request*.

Manners imply shipping the compiled product with source, but it's not
necessary or necessarily a rule followed by everyone.

> Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for
> source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

Ok, then any person is welcome to contact those organisations and request
the source. If they fail to provide it you can take the matter up with the
relevant people at the FSF.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html

(well technically only copyright holders can do so)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog can cure depression.
The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed
again." - Jay Leno


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:42:34 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:42:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
>the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
>sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
>it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
>mailman.


The list's real_name attribute is what will appear in the archive web
pages. This is the listname given to bin/newlist with possible
capitalization differences. You can modify the capitalization if
desired with bin/config_list before running bin/arch. Once you've run
bin/arch, it's built in to the web pages (you can run bin/arch --wipe
to rebuild them)

You don't need to run the web interface for anything assuming the
archive is 'public'. Also, since the archive is static, you don't need
the list (or Mailman) at all after the archive is created.

You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  1 18:49:15 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:49:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
 implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:42 AM -0700 2006-09-01, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  Anyway, if you go to <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/>
>  and follow any of the "Mac OS X 10.3  Darwin 7.0" or later "source"
>  links you will find links to Mailman source. I don't know whether this
>  is Apple modified source or just our source. I haven't had time to
>  investigate this.

Looking at 
<http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.3/mailman-105/mailman/NEWS>, 
it appears that they started with Mailman 2.1.2, but I am not yet 
seeing any Apple-modified stuff.

Looking at 
<http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.ppc/mailman-117/mailman/NEWS>, 
it looks like they got up to version 2.1.5, but again I'm still 
trying to figure out what parts may have been modified by Apple.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 18:53:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:53:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help:
	Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12, _GOT_gid_110
In-Reply-To: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112CFED@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609010953060593b8e1b0b7@msapiro>

Heinrich, Maximilian wrote:
>
>so far so good. NOW I get at least no "deferral" but "success" delivery
>message in my qmail log but with this error behind it:
>
>delivery 890: success:
>Failure_to_exec_script._WANTED_gid_12,_GOT_gid_110./Failed_to_start_/usr
>/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/
>
>:'-( (gid 12 == mail)
>
>Since using a combination of Suse9.3, PLESK and a (obviously?) special
>distribution of mailmnan that comes with this combination I'm not able
>to compile this with those funky parameters like -with-mail-gid=12 or
>something. 
>
>What can I do?


Contact the provider of your package (Suse, PLESK, ?). Some packagers
arrange for the expected group or gid to be read from some file. This
may be the case here.

Or, perhaps you can arrange for qmail to execute the pipe as group
'mail' instead of group 'popuser'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:55:35 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:55:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>
References: <98a90c220608311556r292cda74p9e8d96540b2cc8fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006083116221403123de67b86@msapiro>
Message-ID: <98a90c220609010955q3ccf77e5te6ae75b60d60ff5c@mail.gmail.com>

I use a template to create new lists.
Si, I had already updated the template to reflect this change in new lists
being created.
obscure_addresses = 0

Thanks for the tip and the script.

Mailman rocks!
Tom

On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> >
> >Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists?
> >I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that
> could
> >do this for me. Or, am I missing something?
>
>
> First, you want to put
>
> DEFAULT_OBSCURE_ADDRESSES = No
>
> in mm_cfg.py so new lists will be created with obscure_address = No.
>
> Then you have two choices for existing lists, bin/withlist and
> bin/config_list. config_list is easier to describe so, put the
> following 1 line in a file
>
> obscure_addresses = 0
>
> and run a shell script like
>
> #!/bin/sh
> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
> do bin/config_list -i file $list
> done
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  1 19:20:50 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:20:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <17656.27634.115460.76886@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Dragon writes:

 > Bretton Vine did speak thusly:

 > >I don't think there is any obligation for someone who changes the source of
 > >a GPL product to give the changes back to the original developers, [...]
 > ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
 > 
 > There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3 
 > that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided 
 > either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request 
 > to ANY third party that requests it. Section 2 also plays heavily 
 > into this situation.

Bretton's right.  Satisfying *any* of 3a, 3b, or 3c means you are in
full compliance with section 3.  If you distribute source as part of
every distribution you make, you are under no legal obligation to give
source to any third party.  That includes upstream.

BTW, I was quite surprised at the way you construe 3b; I've always
assumed "any third party" was a reference to recipients of non-source
distributions under 3c.  But IANAL and I'm often enough wrong---you're
probably right.

 > Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for 
 > source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

cPanel seems not to be.  Definitely not at the installation Todd
Zullinger has access to.  I would not be surprised if both Apple and
Plesk are similarly in full technical compliance.  Especially Apple,
since Steve Jobs has not had very good luck with trying to violate the
GPL in the past. :-)

Steve


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  1 19:16:29 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:16:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] GPL Issues (was Re: query re "message has
 implicit destination"(devils advocate!))
In-Reply-To: <44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17655.50641.117401.557981@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p0624050dc11d82983656@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F802A2.9080808@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060901081052.08c14538@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F8561B.3040803@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060901100909.08c19600@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine sent the message below at 08:47 AM 9/1/2006:
>Dragon said the following on 2006/09/01 05:29 PM:
> > Have you actually read the GPL?
> > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt
>
>yes plus variations ;-)
>
> > There is such an obligation explicitly defined in it within section 3
> > that states that source code of any derivative work MUST be provided
> > either as part of the actual distribution of the work or upon request to
> > ANY third party that requests it.
>
>Yes, but that's not what I said. I said there was no obligation to send
>changes back to original developers, but that it was polite to do so.
>Obviously, if the original developers ask for the changes then yes, but if
>they've failed to do so there is no obligation.
>(The feedback appears to indicate that they have asked however)

No, it was not exactly what you said but it could be interpreted in such a way.

>In fact I can take GPL code, modify it and use it internally without either
>the original developers or any third party knowing I've done so. I'm under
>zero obligation to inform anyone of my actions or changes.

Yes, you can. But that is also not applicable to this situation 
because Plesk and Cpanel and Apple have all taken the mailman code, 
applied changes and redistributed them.

>If however I start distributing the changed code it must be done so 
>under the same
>licence, and upon request I must make the source available.

And that is the crux of the issue because as I understand it, such 
requests have been made and rebuffed or ignored.

>There is no obligation for me to indicate what I changed from an original
>code base (code or docs) only an obligation for me to provide the source
>*on request*.
>
>Manners imply shipping the compiled product with source, but it's not
>necessary or necessarily a rule followed by everyone.

Nor is it required under the GPL. The GPL only requires that it be 
made available and does not specify the exact mechanism of how this 
must be done.

> > Thus by either passively ignoring or actively refusing requests for
> > source, Apple, Plesk and CPanel are in direct violation of the GPL.

If the link Mark posted earlier with Apple's source code does indeed 
have their version (which looks likely due to a different version 
number on it), then I retract my statement about Apple. By providing 
the source on the web, they have adhered to both the letter and the 
spirit of the GPL.

>Ok, then any person is welcome to contact those organisations and request
>the source. If they fail to provide it you can take the matter up with the
>relevant people at the FSF.
>
>http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html
>
>(well technically only copyright holders can do so)

Very true.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 19:17:58 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:17:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
	implicitdestination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <PC17602006090108421702810f4ab56a@msapiro>
	<p06240500c11e14815a91@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060901171758.GN4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brad Knowles wrote:
> Looking at 
> <http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.ppc/mailman-117/mailman/NEWS>, 
> it looks like they got up to version 2.1.5, but again I'm still 
> trying to figure out what parts may have been modified by Apple.

I grabbed the source from:

    http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/tarballs/other/mailman-117.tar.gz

which is linked from (among other places):

    http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.7.x86/

The mailman sources are in the tarball in the mailman dir.  The diff
to that is here:

    http://pobox.com/~tmz/mailman-apple.diff.bz2

There are other Apple specific things in the tarball, Makefile, init
script, etc, which are worth checking out to see how they package
Mailman and how that may affect those coming here for some help with
those Apple packages.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

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From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 19:23:45 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:23:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
>information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.


Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.

templates/en/archtoc.html
templates/en/archtocnombox.html
templates/en/archidxhead.html
templates/en/archidxfoot.html

assuming English.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 20:55:27 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:55:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
References: <34a783b20609010852o1c3380e2m9bda285eeccb452@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011155q27776d77s7a4bbcac10456d8e@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >
> >I believe I need to do more to configure the list, so that for example
> >the list name appears somewhere on the archive pages.  I'm not yet
> >sure if I should do this via command line tools, or if I need to hook
> >it up so the list admin web pages work on this private copy of
> >mailman.
>
>
> The list's real_name attribute is what will appear in the archive web
> pages. This is the listname given to bin/newlist with possible
> capitalization differences. You can modify the capitalization if
> desired with bin/config_list before running bin/arch. Once you've run
> bin/arch, it's built in to the web pages (you can run bin/arch --wipe
> to rebuild them)

Ah, config_list is what I'm looking for I'm sure.  Thanks!

I've looked at the output of the tests, of course, so I know the
archives are all static; that's one reason I'm taking this approach,
it's a do-once-and-back-up scenario, it won't need any future effort
once it's done.

I'm hoping arch doesn't choke on the 43MB mbox file.

> You don't need to run the web interface for anything assuming the
> archive is 'public'. Also, since the archive is static, you don't need
> the list (or Mailman) at all after the archive is created.

Since I'm running everything as user ddb and user ddb owns everything,
even private archives should be accessible.  Doesn't matter, for this
purpose I'm setting them up as public (I'm not even doing this on the
destination system, they'll be tared up and moved when I get them
right).

> You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.

Or change the template, as someone suggested.

For the couple of extinct lists I should do something like that (or
point it to the page explaining what the list *was* and that it's
extinct).

For the big list, it's still active, so I'm pointing to it's live
page.  I'm just getting old archives together to put online.  I'm not
merging them into the new archives because of peculiarities in
Dreamhosts support of mailman -- while I control evertyhing through
the mailman web pages, I don't actually have filesystem visibility
into any of it, not even readonly.  So the old archives will be
separate from the new archives.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 20:57:13 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:57:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature request
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>
References: <34a783b20609010855l11d12489w5838f3b2da8091a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200609010930460765f63eb80b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011157i2876cc20i5b8b65f6ad31bc1d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >It'd sure be nice if there were a CSS file associated with the web
> >archives that mailman generates.
>
> See <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Summer+of+Code>.

That's interesting.  Although if I understand correctly, he's going
with mod_python, which like mod_perl and the rest won't be available
in a shared hosting environment.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From ken at sunward.org  Fri Sep  1 21:42:37 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:42:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
Message-ID: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:

 

1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 
2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
different name but the same configuration? 
3.	Rename a list? 

 

I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't find
them.

 

~ Thanks in advance for your help

~ Ken Winter

 

PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?

 



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 21:50:02 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:50:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011250n4c7a8339h5c6fbb549ed674e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
>
>
> Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
>
> templates/en/archtoc.html
> templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> templates/en/archidxhead.html
> templates/en/archidxfoot.html
>
> assuming English.

Ah, and the individual article template really doesn't contain any
identification of the list.  Well, now I know where to fix that.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  1 21:51:12 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:51:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609011251i6b299f5dge0b37fcaa62b24d7@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
>
>
> Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
>
> templates/en/archtoc.html
> templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> templates/en/archidxhead.html
> templates/en/archidxfoot.html
>
> assuming English.

Hey, looking at those templates plus article.html, I can put in the
CSS stuff I want right there; the code doesn't even have to be
touched.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From steele at agora-net.com  Fri Sep  1 22:02:08 2006
From: steele at agora-net.com (Ryan Steele)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:02:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <44F891C0.40408@agora-net.com>

First off, I'm not sure if any of those are possible via the web 
interface.  I don't think that's really what the interface was designed 
for.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Renaming a list is a royal pain in the ass.  There's some documentation 
on the Mailman website about it, though it warns that there's no really 
safe way to do this.  And it seems to me that 2) and 3) are going to do 
the same thing.  However, for #2 you might take a look at 
bin/config_list.  As far as deleting a list, it's easy to do using the 
bin/rmlist.  Generally, if you're doing administration for a bunch of 
lists, I've found it much easier to work with the command line utilities 
that ship with Mailman.  Hope this helps a little bit.

Ryan

Ken Winter wrote:
> Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
>
>  
>
> 1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 
> 2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration? 
> 3.	Rename a list? 
>
>  
>
> I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't find
> them.
>
>  
>
> ~ Thanks in advance for your help
>
> ~ Ken Winter
>
>  
>
> PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
> sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steele%40agora-net.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   


-- 
Ryan Steele                         
Systems Administrator               steele at agora-net.com
AgoraNet, Inc.                      (302) 224-2475
314 E. Main Street, Suite 1         (302) 224-2552 (fax)
Newark, DE 19711                    http://www.agora-net.com



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Sep  1 22:18:44 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:18:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <20060901201844.GO4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ken Winter wrote:
> Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
> 
> 1.	Delete an entire mailing list? 

By default you can't do this from the web interface.  If the site
admin puts OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = yes into mm_cfg.py,
then list owners can delete their own lists.

> 2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration? 

I don't think this is possible with the web interface.  The command
line provides a config_list tool that can be used to do this.  There
are also some scripts to drive the web interface that may be able to
do this, but I don't recall the location of those at the moment
(somewhere on starship.python.org).

> 3.	Rename a list? 

Also not possible from the web interface AFAIK.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
So I don't get hurt?!  Thats the best you can come up with you
dull-witted termagant!
    -- Stewie Griffin, on why he needs a car seat

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From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 22:32:41 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:32:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list of
	posters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <p06240504c11bbecd735e@192.168.1.102>
References: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240504c11bbecd735e@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609011332p40a85afct425a3921b4c5f4d5@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks but I am still not getting this.

On 8/30/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
>
> At 2:12 PM -0400 2006-08-30, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
> >  I have been charged with creating two lists, each with a limited set of
> >  people who are allowed to **post** to the list.
> >  One list is an umbrella list ; the other is not.  The people who are
> allowed
> >  to post are a subset of members of the list.
>
> That would be required for the umbrella list situation, unless you
> want to apply the patch where you can use the @list notation to call
> in the list of subscribers from another list and then put that in the
> set of approved senders.


I never want the whole list to be approved, I just want a few people to be
approved.

>  I see how to allow them to post if they are *not* members of the list ,
> but
> >  not if they *are*.
>
> Just turn off their moderation bits, but leave everyone else moderated.


The people who are in the sub-lists don't have moderation bits, though. If I
make them unmodearted members of the umbrella list, and they are also
members of the sub-lists, will they get everything twice?

(I will make some dummy lists to play with.  This is all fraught with peril
because much FUD exists about email at high levels. Many phone calls
accompany use of these umbrella lists. To my knowledge, our mailman
installations have NEVER lost or mis-delivered a message. But it's hard to
prove that they never will)


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 23:05:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:05:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list
	ofposters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609011332p40a85afct425a3921b4c5f4d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006090114055601560bcc6554@msapiro>

Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
>The people who are in the sub-lists don't have moderation bits, though. If I
>make them unmodearted members of the umbrella list, and they are also
>members of the sub-lists, will they get everything twice?


Yes, unless you set their delivery on the umbrella list to disabled.

So if I understand, you have an umbrella list and some sub-lists. Your
authorized posters are unmoderated on the sub-lists so they can post
to the sub-list directly without their posts being held.

To enable them to post to the umbrella list, you have several options.

1) make the posters unmoderated members of the umbrella list with
delivery disabled. This will work, but there will be administrivia
issues. E.g., if jdoe at example.com is a member of the umbrella, things
like the password reminder for jdoe will be sent to
jdoe-owner at example.com which of course will bounce. You can turn off
password reminders too and that may cover it.

2) make the umbrella list 'open'. I.e., set Privacy options...->Sender
filters->generic_nonmember_action to accept. Then poster (who must be
unmoderated on all the sub-lists) can post and the post is accepted by
the umbrella and all the sub-lists. A non-member or non-poster post
will be accepted by the umbrella, but held by the sub-lists.

3) add the posters to accept_these_nonmembers of the umbrella list.

4) make a 'posters' list which is not a member of the umbrella, but
which has as members all the authorized posters. Apply the patch at
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1220144&group_id=103&atid=300103>
and add '@posters' to the umbrella's accept_these_nonmembers.

There are probably other ways I haven't thought of (and gotcha's I
haven't thought of too).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 23:08:06 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:08:06 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim]  Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <E1GJBEq-0000zQ-BC@scyw00225.scy001.de>
References: <PC17602006083116012505783de67c9b@msapiro>
	<200609011422.33607.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<E1GJBEq-0000zQ-BC@scyw00225.scy001.de>
Message-ID: <200609012308.07145.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Friday 01 September 2006 17:47, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:22:33 +0200, Oliver K?nig <k.oliver at t-online.de>
>
> wrote:
> >domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS= server.windfinder.com :
> > news.server.windfinder.com
> >
> >After exim4 restart the mail delivery failed completely (even for non
> > mailman mail):
> >
> >/var/log/exim4/mainlog
> >2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND <= user at server.windfinder.com U=user
> >P=local S=11314
> >2006-09-01 10:39:13 1GJ4YH-0004nB-ND unknown named domain
> >list "+MAILMAN_domains"
>
> I suspect that names of named lists are case sensitive, and
> MAILMAN_DOMAINS does not equal MAILMAN_domains.
>
> Greetings
> Marc
I made the changes to match case sensitivity butdelivery still does not work:

server:~# exim4 -bt news at server.windfinder.com
news at server.windfinder.com
  router = mailman_router, transport = mailman_transport


server:~# exim4 -d -bt news at server.windfinder.com
Exim version 4.50 uid=0 gid=0 pid=2790 D=fbb95cfd
Berkeley DB: Sleepycat Software: Berkeley DB 4.2.52: (December  3, 2003)
Support for: iconv() IPv6 PAM Perl GnuTLS Content_Scanning Old_Demime
Lookups: lsearch wildlsearch nwildlsearch iplsearch cdb dbm dbmnz dnsdb 
dsearch ldap ldapdn ldapm mysql nis nis0 passwd pgsql
Authenticators: cram_md5 cyrus_sasl plaintext spa
Routers: accept dnslookup ipliteral iplookup manualroute queryprogram redirect
Transports: appendfile/maildir/mailstore/mbx autoreply lmtp pipe smtp
Fixed never_users: 0
changed uid/gid: forcing real = effective
  uid=0 gid=0 pid=2790
  auxiliary group list: <none>
configuration file is /var/lib/exim4/config.autogenerated
log selectors = 00000ffc 00020800
trusted user
admin user
user name "root" extracted from gecos field "root"
originator: uid=0 gid=0 login=root name=root
sender address = root at server.windfinder.com
Address testing: uid=0 gid=102 euid=0 egid=102
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Testing news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Considering news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
routing news at server.windfinder.com
--------> mailman_router router <--------
local_part=news domain=server.windfinder.com
checking require_files
file check: /var/lib/mailman/lists/$local_part/config.pck
expanded file: /var/lib/mailman/lists/news/config.pck
stat() yielded 0
calling mailman_router router
mailman_router router called for news at server.windfinder.com
  domain = server.windfinder.com
set transport mailman_transport
queued for mailman_transport transport: local_part = news
domain = server.windfinder.com
  errors_to=NULL
  domain_data=NULL localpart_data=NULL
routed by mailman_router router
  envelope to: news at server.windfinder.com
  transport: mailman_transport
news at server.windfinder.com
  router = mailman_router, transport = mailman_transport
search_tidyup called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exim pid=2790 terminating with rc=0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gruss,


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep  1 23:30:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 14:30:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim]  Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <200609012308.07145.k.oliver@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011430400734c9049cc6@msapiro>

Oliver K?nig wrote:

>I made the changes to match case sensitivity butdelivery still does not work:
>
>server:~# exim4 -d -bt news at server.windfinder.com
>Exim version 4.50 uid=3D0 gid=3D0 pid=3D2790 D=3Dfbb95cfd
>Berkeley DB: Sleepycat Software: Berkeley DB 4.2.52: (December  3, 2003)
>Support for: iconv() IPv6 PAM Perl GnuTLS Content_Scanning Old_Demime
>Lookups: lsearch wildlsearch nwildlsearch iplsearch cdb dbm dbmnz dnsdb 
>dsearch ldap ldapdn ldapm mysql nis nis0 passwd pgsql
>Authenticators: cram_md5 cyrus_sasl plaintext spa
>Routers: accept dnslookup ipliteral iplookup manualroute queryprogram redirect
>Transports: appendfile/maildir/mailstore/mbx autoreply lmtp pipe smtp
>Fixed never_users: 0
>changed uid/gid: forcing real = effective
>  uid=0 gid=0 pid=2790
>  auxiliary group list: <none>
>configuration file is /var/lib/exim4/config.autogenerated
>log selectors = 00000ffc 00020800
>trusted user
>admin user
>user name "root" extracted from gecos field "root"
>originator: uid=0 gid=0 login=root name=root
>sender address = root at server.windfinder.com
>Address testing: uid=0 gid=102 euid=0 egid=102
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Testing news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Considering news at server.windfinder.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>routing news at server.windfinder.com
>--------> mailman_router router <--------
>local_part=news domain=server.windfinder.com
>checking require_files
>file check: /var/lib/mailman/lists/$local_part/config.pck
>expanded file: /var/lib/mailman/lists/news/config.pck
>stat() yielded 0
>calling mailman_router router
>mailman_router router called for news at server.windfinder.com
>  domain = server.windfinder.com
>set transport mailman_transport
>queued for mailman_transport transport: local_part = news
>domain = server.windfinder.com
>  errors_to=NULL
>  domain_data=NULL localpart_data=NULL
>routed by mailman_router router
>  envelope to: news at server.windfinder.com
>  transport: mailman_transport
>news at server.windfinder.com
>  router = mailman_router, transport = mailman_transport
>search_tidyup called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exim pid=3D2790 terminating with rc=0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


It looks OK to me. What doesn't work?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From k.oliver at t-online.de  Fri Sep  1 23:45:19 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:45:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200609012345.20004.k.oliver@t-online.de>

> You seem to have case issues here, i.e., MAILMAN_DOMAINS vs.
> MAILMAN_domains. The documentation shows this all lower case. I don't
> know if that is significant or not, but it may be.
>
> Also, you don't indicate whether or not you have server.windfinder.com
> and news.server.windfinder.com in local_domains. If not, I think this
> is the cause of your relaying problem.

The lists are in the local domain (windfinder.com). So I just deleted the 
following:
domainlist mailman_domains= server.windfinder.com
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
.. and any additional RCPT ACL should be obsolte because the lists ARE in the 
local domain. 

When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog still says. 
2006-09-01 23:40:08 H=mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81] 
F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT <News-request at server.windfinder.com>: 
relay not permitted

Here is my complete Exim4 config:
#########
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# this file is generated dynamically from the files in
# CONFDIR/conf.d/ or /etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template respectively and
# /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf
# Any changes you make here will be lost.
# See /usr/share/doc/exim4-base/README.Debian.gz and update-exim4.conf(8)
# for instructions of customization.
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
# WARNING WARNING WARNING
#########
MAIN_TLS_ENABLE = true#####################################################

exim_path = /usr/sbin/exim4

.ifndef CONFDIR
CONFDIR = /etc/exim4
.endif

.ifndef DC_minimaldns

.endif

.ifndef DC_visiblename
DC_visiblename=server.windfinder.com
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = @:localhost:windfinder.com:server.windfinder.com
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = 
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS

.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS

.ifdef DC_visiblename
qualify_domain = DC_visiblename
.endif

.ifndef DCreadhost
DCreadhost = 
.endif

.ifndef DCsmarthost
DCsmarthost = 
.endif

.ifdef MAIN_LOCAL_INTERFACES
local_interfaces = MAIN_LOCAL_INTERFACES
.else
local_interfaces = 0.0.0.0
.endif

.ifndef LOCAL_DELIVERY
LOCAL_DELIVERY=maildir_home
.endif

gecos_pattern = ^([^,:]*)
gecos_name = $1

.ifndef DCconfig_satellite
.ifndef DCconfig_internet
.ifndef DCconfig_local
.ifndef DCconfig_smarthost
DCconfig_internet = 1
.endif
.endif
.endif
.endif

.ifndef CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS
CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS = ^[.] : ^.*[@%!/|\'`#&?]
.endif

.ifndef CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS
CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS = ^[./|] : ^.*[@%!\'`#&?] : ^.*/\\.\\./
.endif

av_scanner = clamd:/var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl
spamd_address = /var/run/spamd.sock

MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman

MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon

.ifndef MAIN_ACL_CHECK_RCPT
MAIN_ACL_CHECK_RCPT = acl_check_rcpt
.endif
acl_smtp_rcpt = MAIN_ACL_CHECK_RCPT

.ifndef MAIN_ACL_CHECK_DATA
MAIN_ACL_CHECK_DATA = acl_check_data
.endif
acl_smtp_data = MAIN_ACL_CHECK_DATA

.ifdef MESSAGE_SIZE_LIMIT
message_size_limit = MESSAGE_SIZE_LIMIT
.endif

.ifdef MAIN_ALLOW_DOMAIN_LITERALS
allow_domain_literals
.endif

.ifndef DC_minimaldns
.ifndef MAIN_HOST_LOOKUP
MAIN_HOST_LOOKUP = *
.endif
host_lookup = MAIN_HOST_LOOKUP
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_FORCE_SENDER
local_from_check = false
local_sender_retain = true
untrusted_set_sender = *
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_IGNORE_BOUNCE_ERRORS_AFTER
MAIN_IGNORE_BOUNCE_ERRORS_AFTER = 2d
.endif
ignore_bounce_errors_after = MAIN_IGNORE_BOUNCE_ERRORS_AFTER

.ifndef MAIN_TIMEOUT_FROZEN_AFTER
MAIN_TIMEOUT_FROZEN_AFTER = 7d
.endif
timeout_frozen_after = MAIN_TIMEOUT_FROZEN_AFTER

.ifndef MAIN_FREEZE_TELL
MAIN_FREEZE_TELL = postmaster
.endif
freeze_tell = MAIN_FREEZE_TELL

.ifndef SPOOLDIR
SPOOLDIR = /var/spool/exim4
.endif
spool_directory = SPOOLDIR

.ifndef MAIN_TRUSTED_USERS
MAIN_TRUSTED_USERS = uucp
.endif
trusted_users = MAIN_TRUSTED_USERS
.ifdef MAIN_TRUSTED_GROUPS
trusted_groups = MAIN_TRUSTED_GROUPS
.endif

.ifdef MAIN_TLS_ENABLE
.ifndef MAIN_TLS_ADVERTISE_HOSTS
MAIN_TLS_ADVERTISE_HOSTS = *
.endif
tls_advertise_hosts = MAIN_TLS_ADVERTISE_HOSTS

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_CERTIFICATE
MAIN_TLS_CERTIFICATE = CONFDIR/exim.crt
.endif
tls_certificate = MAIN_TLS_CERTIFICATE

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_PRIVATEKEY
MAIN_TLS_PRIVATEKEY = CONFDIR/exim.key
.endif
tls_privatekey = MAIN_TLS_PRIVATEKEY

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_CERTIFICATES
MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_CERTIFICATES = ${if 
exists{/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt}\
                                    {/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt}\
				    {/dev/null}}
.endif
tls_verify_certificates = MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_CERTIFICATES

.ifdef MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_HOSTS
tls_verify_hosts = MAIN_TLS_VERIFY_HOSTS
.endif

.ifndef MAIN_TLS_TRY_VERIFY_HOSTS
MAIN_TLS_TRY_VERIFY_HOSTS = *
.endif
tls_try_verify_hosts = MAIN_TLS_TRY_VERIFY_HOSTS

.endif

begin acl

acl_whitelist_local_deny:
  accept
    hosts = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_host_whitelist}\
                 {CONFDIR/local_host_whitelist}\
                 {}}
  accept
    senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_sender_whitelist}\
                   {CONFDIR/local_sender_whitelist}\
                   {}}

  .ifdef WHITELIST_LOCAL_DENY_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .include WHITELIST_LOCAL_DENY_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .endif

acl_check_rcpt:
  accept
    hosts = :

  warn
    hosts = +relay_from_hosts
    control = submission/sender_retain

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS
  deny
    domains = +local_domains
    local_parts = CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_LOCALPARTS
    message = restricted characters in address
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS
  deny
    domains = !+local_domains
    local_parts = CHECK_RCPT_REMOTE_LOCALPARTS
    message = restricted characters in address
  .endif

  accept
    .ifndef CHECK_RCPT_POSTMASTER
    local_parts = postmaster
    .else
    local_parts = CHECK_RCPT_POSTMASTER
    .endif
    domains = +local_domains

  deny
    message = sender envelope address $sender_address is locally blacklisted 
here. If you think this is wrong, get in touch with postmaster
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_sender_blacklist}\
                   {CONFDIR/local_sender_blacklist}\
                   {}}

  deny
    message = sender IP address $sender_host_address is locally blacklisted 
here. If you think this is wrong, get in touch with postmaster
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    hosts = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_host_blacklist}\
                 {CONFDIR/local_host_blacklist}\
                 {}}

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_VERIFY_SENDER
  deny
    message = Sender verification failed
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    !verify = sender
  .endif

  deny
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_sender_callout}\
                         {CONFDIR/local_sender_callout}\
                   {}}
    !verify = sender/callout

  deny
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    recipients = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_rcpt_callout}\
                            {CONFDIR/local_rcpt_callout}\
                      {}}
    !verify = recipient/callout

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_REVERSE_DNS
  warn
    message = X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 
$sender_host_address (${if eq{$host_lookup_failed}{1}{failed}{deferred}})
     condition = ${if and{{def:sender_host_address}{!def:sender_host_name}}\
                      {yes}{no}}
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_IP_DNSBLS
  warn
    message = X-Warning: $sender_host_address is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    log_message = $sender_host_address is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    dnslists = CHECK_RCPT_IP_DNSBLS
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_DOMAIN_DNSBLS
  warn
    message = X-Warning: $sender_address_domain is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    log_message = $sender_address_domain is listed at $dnslist_domain 
($dnslist_value: $dnslist_text)
    !senders = ${if exists{CONFDIR/local_domain_dnsbl_whitelist}\
                    {CONFDIR/local_domain_dnsbl_whitelist}\
                    {}}
    dnslists = CHECK_RCPT_DOMAIN_DNSBLS/$sender_address_domain
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .include CHECK_RCPT_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .endif

  accept
    domains = +local_domains
    endpass
    message = unknown user
    verify = recipient

  accept
    domains = +relay_to_domains
    endpass
    .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER
    message = ${if eq{$acl_verify_message}{Unrouteable address}{unknown user}
{$acl_verify_message}}
    .else
    message = unrouteable address
    .endif
    verify = recipient

  accept
    hosts = +relay_from_hosts

  accept
    authenticated = *

  deny
    message = relay not permitted

acl_check_data:

  .ifdef CHECK_DATA_VERIFY_HEADER_SYNTAX
  deny
    message = Message headers fail syntax check
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    !verify = header_syntax
  .endif

  .ifdef CHECK_DATA_VERIFY_HEADER_SENDER
  deny
    message = No verifiable sender address in message headers
    !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
    !verify = header_sender
  .endif

  deny
    message = This message contains a virus: ($malware_name) please scan your 
system.
     demime = *
     malware = *

  warn  message = X-Spam-Score: $spam_score ($spam_bar)
        spam = nobody:true
  warn  message = X-Spam-Report: $spam_report
        spam = nobody:true
  
  warn  message = Subject: *SPAM* $h_Subject:
        spam = nobody
  
  deny   message = This message scored $spam_score spam points.
         spam = nobody:true
         condition = ${if >{$spam_score_int}{100}{1}{0}}

  .ifdef CHECK_DATA_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .include CHECK_DATA_LOCAL_ACL_FILE
  .endif

  accept

begin routers

mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  transport = mailman_transport

.ifdef MAIN_ALLOW_DOMAIN_LITERALS
domain_literal:
  debug_print = "R: domain_literal for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = ipliteral
  domains = ! +local_domains
  transport = remote_smtp
.endif

hubbed_hosts:
  debug_print = "R: hubbed_hosts for $domain"
  driver = manualroute
  domains = "${if exists{CONFDIR/hubbed_hosts}\
                   {partial-lsearch;CONFDIR/hubbed_hosts}\
              fail}"
  route_data = ${lookup{$domain}partial-lsearch{CONFDIR/hubbed_hosts}}
  transport = remote_smtp

.ifdef DCconfig_internet

dnslookup_relay_to_domains:
  debug_print = "R: dnslookup_relay_to_domains for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = dnslookup
  domains = ! +local_domains : +relay_to_domains
  transport = remote_smtp
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  no_more

dnslookup:
  debug_print = "R: dnslookup for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = dnslookup
  domains = ! +local_domains
  transport = remote_smtp
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  ignore_target_hosts = 0.0.0.0 : 127.0.0.0/8 : 192.168.0.0/16 :\
                        172.16.0.0/12 : 10.0.0.0/8 : 169.254.0.0/16
  no_more

.endif

.ifdef DCconfig_local
nonlocal:
  debug_print = "R: nonlocal for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = ! +local_domains
  allow_fail
  data = :fail: Mailing to remote domains not supported
  no_more

.endif

.ifdef DCconfig_smarthost DCconfig_satellite

smarthost:
  debug_print = "R: smarthost for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = manualroute
  domains = ! +local_domains
  transport = remote_smtp_smarthost
  route_list = * DCsmarthost byname
  host_find_failed = defer
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  no_more

.endif

real_local:
  debug_print = "R: real_local for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  local_part_prefix = real-
  check_local_user
  transport = LOCAL_DELIVERY

system_aliases:
  debug_print = "R: system_aliases for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  allow_fail
  allow_defer
  data = ${lookup{$local_part}lsearch{/etc/aliases}}
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_USER
  user = SYSTEM_ALIASES_USER
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_GROUP
  group = SYSTEM_ALIASES_GROUP
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_FILE_TRANSPORT
  file_transport = SYSTEM_ALIASES_FILE_TRANSPORT
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_PIPE_TRANSPORT
  pipe_transport = SYSTEM_ALIASES_PIPE_TRANSPORT
  .endif
  .ifdef SYSTEM_ALIASES_DIRECTORY_TRANSPORT
  directory_transport = SYSTEM_ALIASES_DIRECTORY_TRANSPORT
  .endif

.ifdef DCconfig_satellite
hub_user:
  debug_print = "R: hub_user for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  data = ${local_part}@DCreadhost
  check_local_user

hub_user_smarthost:
  debug_print = "R: hub_user_smarthost for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = manualroute
  domains = DCreadhost
  transport = remote_smtp_smarthost
  route_list = * DCsmarthost byname
  host_find_failed = defer
  same_domain_copy_routing = yes
  check_local_user
.endif

userforward:
  debug_print = "R: userforward for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  file = $home/.forward
  no_verify
  no_expn
  check_ancestor
  allow_filter
  directory_transport = address_directory
  file_transport = address_file
  pipe_transport = address_pipe
  reply_transport = address_reply
  skip_syntax_errors
  syntax_errors_to = real-$local_part@$domain
  syntax_errors_text = \
    This is an automatically generated message. An error has\n\
    been found in your .forward file. Details of the error are\n\
    reported below. While this error persists, you will receive\n\
    a copy of this message for every message that is addressed\n\
    to you. If your .forward file is a filter file, or if it is\n\
    a non-filter file containing no valid forwarding addresses,\n\
    a copy of each incoming message will be put in your normal\n\
    mailbox. If a non-filter file contains at least one valid\n\
    forwarding address, forwarding to the valid addresses will\n\
    happen, and those will be the only deliveries that occur.

procmail:
  debug_print = "R: procmail for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  transport = procmail_pipe
  require_files = ${local_part}:\
                  ${if exists{/etc/procmailrc}\
                    {/etc/procmailrc}{${home}/.procmailrc}}:\
                  +/usr/bin/procmail
  no_verify
  no_expn

maildrop:
  debug_print = "R: maildrop for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  transport = maildrop_pipe
  require_files = ${local_part}:${home}/.mailfilter:+/usr/bin/maildrop
  no_verify
  no_expn

local_user:
  debug_print = "R: local_user for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = accept
  domains = +local_domains
  check_local_user
  local_parts = ! root
  transport = LOCAL_DELIVERY

mail4root:
  debug_print = "R: mail4root for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = redirect
  domains = +local_domains
  data = /var/mail/mail
  file_transport = address_file
  local_parts = root
  user = mail
  group = mail

begin transports

mailman_transport:
  driver = pipe
  command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
            '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                  {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                  {post}}' \
            $local_part
  current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
  user = MAILMAN_USER
  group = MAILMAN_GROUP

address_file:
  debug_print = "T: address_file for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add
  return_path_add

address_pipe:
  debug_print = "T: address_pipe for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = pipe
  return_fail_output

address_reply:
  debug_print = "T: autoreply for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = autoreply

mail_spool:
  debug_print = "T: appendfile for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  file = /var/mail/$local_part
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add
  return_path_add
  group = mail
  mode = 0660
  mode_fail_narrower = false

maildir_home:
  debug_print = "T: maildir_home for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_MAILDIR_LOCATION
  directory = MAILDIR_HOME_MAILDIR_LOCATION
  .else
  directory = $home/Maildir
  .endif
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_CREATE_DIRECTORY
  create_directory
  .endif
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_CREATE_FILE
  create_file = MAILDIR_HOME_CREATE_FILE
  .endif
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add
  return_path_add
  maildir_format
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_DIRECTORY_MODE
  directory_mode = MAILDIR_HOME_DIRECTORY_MODE
  .else
  directory_mode = 0700
  .endif
  .ifdef MAILDIR_HOME_MODE
  mode = MAILDIR_HOME_MODE
  .else
  mode = 0600
  .endif
  mode_fail_narrower = false

maildrop_pipe:
  debug_print = "T: maildrop_pipe for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = pipe
  path = "/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin"
  command = "/usr/bin/maildrop"
  return_path_add
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add

procmail_pipe:
  debug_print = "T: procmail_pipe for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = pipe
  path = "/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin"
  command = "/usr/bin/procmail"
  return_path_add
  delivery_date_add
  envelope_to_add

remote_smtp:
  debug_print = "T: remote_smtp for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = smtp

remote_smtp_smarthost:
  debug_print = "T: remote_smtp_smarthost for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = smtp
  hosts_try_auth = ${if exists {CONFDIR/passwd.client}{DCsmarthost}{}}
  tls_tempfail_tryclear = false
  
  

address_directory:
  debug_print = "T: address_directory for $local_part@$domain"
  driver = appendfile
  envelope_to_add = true
  return_path_add = true
  check_string = ""
  escape_string = ""
  maildir_format

begin retry

*                      *           F,2h,15m; G,16h,1h,1.5; F,4d,6h

begin rewrite

*@+local_domains ${lookup{${local_part}}lsearch{/etc/email-addresses}\
                   {$value}fail} Ffrs
*@server.windfinder.com ${lookup{${local_part}}lsearch{/etc/email-addresses}
{$value}fail} Ffrs

begin authenticators

plain_courier_authdaemon:
  driver = plaintext
  public_name = PLAIN
  server_condition = \
               ${if eq {${readsocket{/var/run/courier/authdaemon/socket}\
               {AUTH ${strlen:exim\nlogin\n$2\n$3\n}\nexim\nlogin\n$2\n$3\n}}}
{FAIL\n}{no}{yes}}
  server_set_id = $2
  .ifndef AUTH_SERVER_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
  server_advertise_condition = ${if eq{$tls_cipher}{}{}{*}}
  .endif
 
login_courier_authdaemon:
   driver = plaintext
   public_name = LOGIN
   server_prompts = Username:: : Password::
   server_condition = ${if eq 
{${readsocket{/var/run/courier/authdaemon/socket} \
                 {AUTH 
${strlen:exim\nlogin\n$1\n$2\n}\nexim\nlogin\n$1\n$2\n}}}{FAIL\n}{no}{yes}}
   server_set_id = $1
   .ifndef AUTH_SERVER_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
   server_advertise_condition = ${if eq{$tls_cipher}{}{}{*}}
  .endif

cram_md5:
  driver = cram_md5
  public_name = CRAM-MD5
  client_name = ${extract{1}{:}{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}
{$value}fail}}}
  client_secret = ${extract{2}{:}
{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}

plain:
  driver = plaintext
  public_name = PLAIN
.ifndef AUTH_CLIENT_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
  client_send = "${if !eq{$tls_cipher}{}{\
                     ^${extract{1}{::}\
		       {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}\
		     ^${extract{2}{::}\
		       {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}\
		   }fail}"
.else
  client_send = "^${extract{1}{::}
{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}^${extract{2}
{::}{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}"
.endif

login:
  driver = plaintext
  public_name = LOGIN
.ifndef AUTH_CLIENT_ALLOW_NOTLS_PASSWORDS
  client_send = "${if !eq{$tls_cipher}{}{}fail}\
                 : ${extract{1}{::}\
		        {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}} \
		 : ${extract{2}{::}\
		     {${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}"
.else
  client_send = ": ${extract{1}{::}
{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}} : ${extract{2}
{::}{${lookup{$host}lsearch*{CONFDIR/passwd.client}{$value}fail}}}"
.endif
----

Regards,
Oliver





From k.oliver at t-online.de  Sat Sep  2 00:34:21 2006
From: k.oliver at t-online.de (Oliver =?iso-8859-1?q?K=F6nig?=)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 00:34:21 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [exim]  Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060901220329.GA8215@www.lobefin.net>
References: <PC17602006090108111709211beb062a@msapiro>
	<200609012345.20004.k.oliver@t-online.de>
	<20060901220329.GA8215@www.lobefin.net>
Message-ID: <200609020034.22028.k.oliver@t-online.de>

On Saturday 02 September 2006 00:03, Stephen Gran wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:45:19PM +0200, Oliver K?nig said:
> > > You seem to have case issues here, i.e., MAILMAN_DOMAINS vs.
> > > MAILMAN_domains. The documentation shows this all lower case. I don't
> > > know if that is significant or not, but it may be.
> > >
> > > Also, you don't indicate whether or not you have server.windfinder.com
> > > and news.server.windfinder.com in local_domains. If not, I think this
> > > is the cause of your relaying problem.
> >
> > The lists are in the local domain (windfinder.com). So I just deleted the
> > following:
> > domainlist mailman_domains= server.windfinder.com
> > MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
> > .. and any additional RCPT ACL should be obsolte because the lists ARE in
> > the local domain.
> >
> > When a subscriber posts to the list /var/log/exim4/mainlog still says.
> > 2006-09-01 23:40:08 H=mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81]
> > F=<k.oliver at t-online.de> rejected RCPT
> > <News-request at server.windfinder.com>: relay not permitted
> >
> > .ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
> > MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = @:localhost:windfinder.com:server.windfinder.com
> > .endif
> > domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
>
> That should set the domainlist local_domains to be the list
> MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS, which is what you wnat, unless of course it is
> elsewhere defined (command line or something).  Should be OK, though.
>
> [snip]
>
> >   accept
> >     domains = +local_domains
> >     endpass
> >     message = unknown user
> >     verify = recipient
> >
> >   accept
> >     domains = +relay_to_domains
> >     endpass
> >     .ifdef CHECK_RCPT_GIVE_UNKNOWN_USER
> >     message = ${if eq{$acl_verify_message}{Unrouteable address}{unknown
> > user} {$acl_verify_message}}
> >     .else
> >     message = unrouteable address
> >     .endif
> >     verify = recipient
> >
> >   accept
> >     hosts = +relay_from_hosts
> >
> >   accept
> >     authenticated = *
> >
> >   deny
> >     message = relay not permitted
>
> This should accept the message, unless the local part isn't routeable.
>
> So, run:
>
> /usr/sbin/exim4 -bhc 194.25.134.81
>
> (output from exim)
> EHLO mailout03.sul.t-online.com
> (output from exim)
> MAIL FROM:<k.oliver at t-online.de>
> (output from exim)
> RCPT TO:<News-request at server.windfinder.com>
>
> (the part you type begins in caps)
> And post the bit after RCPT TO.  someone will spot the flaw.
My dynamic IP address has changed so I used H=mailout02.sul.t-online.com 
[194.25.134.17] F=<k.oliver at t-online.de>. Here is the output after RCPT TO

RCPT TO:<News-request at server.windfinder.com>
>>> using ACL "acl_check_rcpt"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = :
>>> host in ":"? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "warn"
>>> check hosts = +relay_from_hosts
>>> no IP address found for host MAIN_RELAY_NETS (during SMTP connection from 
mailout02.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.17])
LOG: no IP address found for host MAIN_RELAY_NETS (during SMTP connection from 
mailout02.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.17])
>>> host in "127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : 127.0.0.1 : ::::1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS"? no 
(failed to find IP address for MAIN_RELAY_NETS)
>>> host in "+relay_from_hosts"? no (end of list)
>>> warn: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check domains = +local_domains
>>> server.windfinder.com 
in "@:localhost:windfinder.com:server.windfinder.com"? yes 
(matched "server.windfinder.com")
>>> server.windfinder.com in "+local_domains"? yes (matched "+local_domains")
>>> check local_parts = ^[.] : ^.*[@%!/|\'`#&?]
>>> News-request in "^[.] : ^.*[@%!/|'`#&?]"? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check domains = !+local_domains
>>> server.windfinder.com in "!+local_domains"? no (matched "!
+local_domains" - cached)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check local_parts = postmaster
>>> News-request in "postmaster"? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_blacklist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_blacklist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_blacklist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_blacklist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_callout}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_callout}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "deny"
>>> check !acl = acl_whitelist_local_deny
>>> using ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny"
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check hosts = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_host_whitelist}{}}
>>> host in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check senders = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}
{/etc/exim4/local_sender_whitelist}{}}
>>> k.oliver at t-online.de in ""? no (end of list)
>>> accept: condition test failed
>>> end of ACL "acl_whitelist_local_deny": implicit DENY
>>> check recipients = ${if exists{/etc/exim4/local_rcpt_callout}
{/etc/exim4/local_rcpt_callout}{}}
>>> News-request at server.windfinder.com in ""? no (end of list)
>>> deny: condition test failed
>>> processing "accept"
>>> check domains = +local_domains
>>> server.windfinder.com in "+local_domains"? yes (matched "+local_domains" - 
cached)
>>> check verify = recipient
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> routing News-request at server.windfinder.com
>>> calling mailman_router router
>>> routed by mailman_router router
>>> ----------- end verify ------------
>>> accept: condition test succeeded
250 Accepted
                                                     


From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Sat Sep  2 00:50:03 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:50:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] quick script to rebuild subscriber list from logs
Message-ID: <20060901225003.GC32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

So I had a list configuration get hosed recently, and unfortunately, my
only backups were from after the configuration got hosed.

Fortunately, I had a Mailman subscription log dating back to before the
list was created, so I decided to throw together a little script to
rebuild the subscriber list.

Anyway, this isn't perfect / well thought-out, and isn't really designed
in a super user-friendly way, but thought I'd throw it out there in case
it helps out someone in a similar spot in the future.

The script reads a file named "subscribe" in the current directory, and
writes out a list of regular and digest subscribers based on that log
(you'd have to change the paths around if you don't want to write to
/tmp/digestfile and /tmp/regularfile).

w


From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Sat Sep  2 00:56:30 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:56:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] quick script to rebuild subscriber list from
	logs
In-Reply-To: <20060901225003.GC32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
References: <20060901225003.GC32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
Message-ID: <20060901225630.GD32508@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

Ok - so the attachment got stripped.

Anyway, it's up at:

 http://veggiechinese.net/rebuild_subscriber_list.txt

w



From ken at sunward.org  Sat Sep  2 01:25:52 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:25:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <007901c6cdfe$c834d250$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <00a501c6ce1d$f88e5a10$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Todd, Ryan, & Dan ~

Thanks for your responses.  Glad to know I was barking up the right tree.
I'm communicating with my host administrator to see if I have the privileges
to do what I'm trying to do.

~ Ken


    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org [mailto:mailman-
    users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Ken Winter
    Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:43 PM
    To: mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
    Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:


    1.	Delete an entire mailing list?
    2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
    different name but the same configuration?
    3.	Rename a list?

    I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't
    find
    them.
    
    
    
    ~ Thanks in advance for your help
    
    ~ Ken Winter
    
    
    
    PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so I'm
    sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?
    
    
    
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
    Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
    users%40python.org/
    Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
    users/ken%40sunward.org
    
    Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-
    mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp




From ken at sunward.org  Sat Sep  2 03:10:11 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:10:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <00a501c6ce1d$f88e5a10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <00ad01c6ce2c$8bad2160$6703a8c0@kenxp>

My host administrator says I have the privileges I need.  Indeed, I can get
to /usr/local/mailman/ through a SSH shell.  But, see, I'm more-or-less UNIX
/ LINUX ignorant, so I can't seem to get anything to happen from there.  Can
you point me to some command line documentation that can get me through to
where I can do the stuff I need to do?

~ TIA
~ Ken

    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org [mailto:mailman-
    users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Ken Winter
    Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:26 PM
    To: mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
    Todd, Ryan, & Dan ~
    
    Thanks for your responses.  Glad to know I was barking up the right
    tree.
    I'm communicating with my host administrator to see if I have the
    privileges
    to do what I'm trying to do.
    
    ~ Ken
    
    
        -----Original Message-----
        From: mailman-users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org
    [mailto:mailman-
        users-bounces+ken=sunward.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Ken Winter
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:43 PM
        To: mailman-users at python.org
        Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
        Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:
    
    
        1.	Delete an entire mailing list?
        2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
        different name but the same configuration?
        3.	Rename a list?
    
        I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I
    can't
        find
        them.
    
    
    
        ~ Thanks in advance for your help
    
        ~ Ken Winter
    
    
    
        PS: I sent this query two weeks ago, and have heard no response, so
    I'm
        sending it again.  Am I barking up the wrong tree?
    
    
    
        ------------------------------------------------------
        Mailman-Users mailing list
        Mailman-Users at python.org
        http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
        Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
        Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
        users%40python.org/
        Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
        users/ken%40sunward.org
    
        Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-
        mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
    
    
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
    Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
    users%40python.org/
    Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
    users/ken%40sunward.org
    
    Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-
    mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp




From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Sat Sep  2 03:14:23 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:14:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c11d1bc21c41@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C11E28FF.E6B9%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/31/06 4:09 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> Actually, I think either "unapproved" or "unauthorized" are the most
> appropriate terms.  After all, the code is released under the GPL,
> and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making
> their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise
> benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the
> source to their changes back to the community.  But CPanel has not
> done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple.
> 
> Now, in a way, Apple gives back to the project more than they
> probably realize, but that's not the same thing.
> 
> 
> So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm
> actually being reasonably lenient on these companies.

I continue to think that "un-vetted" is closer.  GPL doesn't give Mailman's
copyright holders control over what changes are made, which "unapproved" or
"unauthorized" would seem to imply.

I think.

  --John




From maltokyo at gmail.com  Sat Sep  2 03:39:44 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:39:44 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add "sender's name/email" to BODY of mail as header?
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609011839l5849b711u3351af2a50468d0a@mail.gmail.com>

I want all mails sent to the list to come from the list's email address...

But, in this case, if the user forgets to sign their name at the
bottom of their mail body, effectively the mail to the list is
anonymous...!

Is there a way to add the user name (or email address) to the top of
each mail so that the mails have the name of the sender, while the
mail itself comes from the list address?

I have looked high and low for an answer, but noone seems to have the solution.
Thank you!
Mal


From tmz at pobox.com  Sat Sep  2 04:16:36 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 22:16:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c6ce2c$8bad2160$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <00a501c6ce1d$f88e5a10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<00ad01c6ce2c$8bad2160$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <20060902021636.GQ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ken Winter wrote:
> My host administrator says I have the privileges I need.  Indeed, I can get
> to /usr/local/mailman/ through a SSH shell.

Excellent.

> But, see, I'm more-or-less UNIX / LINUX ignorant, so I can't seem to
> get anything to happen from there.  Can you point me to some command
> line documentation that can get me through to where I can do the
> stuff I need to do?

Most of the command line tools are fairly straightforward and running
them without any options/arguments results in usage information.

The mailman FAQ and the archives of this list have examples and details
of how to use the tools to perform various tasks, searching those
would be a good place to start for general info on the mailman command
line tools.

Taking your original list of tasks but knowing now that you aren't
limited to the web interface, I'd answer a little differently...

> 1.  Delete an entire mailing list?

bin/rmlist would be the tool to use.  It's pretty simple in usage,
just pass it a listname to remove.  If you want to delete the list's
archives as well, use the -a option.

bin/rmlist -a testlist

> 2.  Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
> different name but the same configuration?

That's a task for config_list.  The basic steps are

a) bin/newlist newlist (or use the web interface)
b) bin/config_list -o config oldlist
c) edit config, change any references to the old list to the newlist
c) bin/config_list -i config newlist

> 3.  Rename a list?
            
Renaming is a minor pain.  Perhaps it's best to search the archives.
I've done it but not often enough that I could give you the steps from
memory.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
It's not God. I'm down with God; it's the damn fan club that pisses me
off.
    -- Dan Berger

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From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep  2 04:48:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:48:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add "sender's name/email" to BODY of mail as
	header?
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609011839l5849b711u3351af2a50468d0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011948050125b8e1aee2@msapiro>

Mal wrote:

>I want all mails sent to the list to come from the list's email address...
>
>But, in this case, if the user forgets to sign their name at the
>bottom of their mail body, effectively the mail to the list is
>anonymous...!


That's why the setting that controls this is called anonymous_list.


>Is there a way to add the user name (or email address) to the top of
>each mail so that the mails have the name of the sender, while the
>mail itself comes from the list address?


Only by modifying Mailman code or creating a custom handler to do it.


I wonder why you want all mail to be From: the list if you also want
the poster to be identified. If it is because you want filtering rules
to be able to identify the mail as list mail, consider using some
header other than From: such as X-BeenThere: which identifies the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep  2 04:54:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:54:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
In-Reply-To: <20060902021636.GQ4313@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609011954500750b8e1b180@msapiro>

Todd Zullinger wrote:
>            
>Renaming is a minor pain.  Perhaps it's best to search the archives.
>I've done it but not often enough that I could give you the steps from
>memory.

I posted a reply to this. It may show up eventually, but in case it
disappeared in my outgoing server whose queue I can't see, the
procedure is in the FAQ.
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.070.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From gerald at silvasolutions.net  Sat Sep  2 14:23:19 2006
From: gerald at silvasolutions.net (Gerald Edwards)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 08:23:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Functions Failing
Message-ID: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>

I have installed Mailman 2 with Postfix 2.1.5 on Debian Sarge 3.2 running VirtualDomains on Apache2.

After some trial and error, several remove and purge (start all over) It's up and delivering mail as it should.  Before I went to bed (in the wee hours of Friday morning) I ran a final check and tested the mass add of 3 users (3 of my email accounts at various servers).  All appeared to be working very nicely.  I even created two other mailing lists without incident.

Friday morning (closer to noon) when I went to "show it off" the Administration portion fails to function.  It allows me to login but any action bounces back to the login screen and does not perform the requested function.  I have four mailing lists with Mailman as the primary list and all four behave the same way.  I have checked the cookies and they're setting fine.

I did reboot the server before retiring and after performing the tests, so I'm sure that I've made an error or failed to save a change but can't figure out what I did wrong.  Any help or clue as to where to look would be most helpful.

I've gone through the installation instructions several times and checked the various config files and all appear to be set correctly.

I'm stumped and need a shove.

Thanks
Gerald

From maltokyo at gmail.com  Sat Sep  2 15:25:56 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 22:25:56 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Functions Failing
In-Reply-To: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>
References: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609020625k117c862evf8f69d0ff840dd79@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gerald,

Sounds like your ScriptAlias is playing up.  Did this for me with vhosts too..
I would put everything, including your script alias inside your
vhost..  Then, it will not be fouled up by the default script index of
apache.

Mine is set up like this:

<VirtualHost>
*** all your normal vhost stuff for your server here ***
ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/
ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/mailman/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/
<Directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/>
   AllowOverride None
   Options ExecCGI
   Order allow,deny
   Allow from all
</Directory>
</VirtualHost>






On 02/09/06, Gerald Edwards <gerald at silvasolutions.net> wrote:
> I have installed Mailman 2 with Postfix 2.1.5 on Debian Sarge 3.2 running VirtualDomains on Apache2.
>
> After some trial and error, several remove and purge (start all over) It's up and delivering mail as it should.  Before I went to bed (in the wee hours of Friday morning) I ran a final check and tested the mass add of 3 users (3 of my email accounts at various servers).  All appeared to be working very nicely.  I even created two other mailing lists without incident.
>
> Friday morning (closer to noon) when I went to "show it off" the Administration portion fails to function.  It allows me to login but any action bounces back to the login screen and does not perform the requested function.  I have four mailing lists with Mailman as the primary list and all four behave the same way.  I have checked the cookies and they're setting fine.
>
> I did reboot the server before retiring and after performing the tests, so I'm sure that I've made an error or failed to save a change but can't figure out what I did wrong.  Any help or clue as to where to look would be most helpful.
>
> I've gone through the installation instructions several times and checked the various config files and all appear to be set correctly.
>
> I'm stumped and need a shove.
>
> Thanks
> Gerald
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/maltokyo%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep  2 15:58:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 06:58:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Functions Failing
In-Reply-To: <02ac01c6ce8a$932ce700$6601a8c0@KISTraders>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609020658520656eacb7724@msapiro>

Gerald Edwards wrote:
>
>Friday morning (closer to noon) when I went to "show it off" the Administration portion fails to function.  It allows me to login but any action bounces back to the login screen and does not perform the requested function.  I have four mailing lists with Mailman as the primary list and all four behave the same way.  I have checked the cookies and they're setting fine.


FAQs 4.65 and/or 4.71 may help
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sat Sep  2 16:46:36 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:46:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
 but very slow delivery of posted mails
Message-ID: <905045FF-CAE9-46A0-8124-EF2179FB8D4B@hlinstruments.com>

If the ISP you are having delay problems with is AT&T you can forget about talking to them - they don't listen.  We recently had a very serious issue with AT&T as one of our consultants in Utah uses them via Quest DSL. He didn't see the problem but we did.  They delayed for a week, on average, every mail from another consultant in Florida who is on ISDN using Megapath.  I got both their mails just fine and from AT&T to Megapath was no problem but the reverse was.  We set up a relay forward through our mailserver but still we had problems so it seems that they were parsing the headers and rejecting mail from Megapath, perhaps as spam?  Whatever the reason, it was clearly deliberate.  They would not comment on the problem, would not solve it. 

In the end our Utah consultant had to get another ISP.  Megapath tried to reason with AT&T and got nowhere.

Bob Landman
H&L 




From barry at python.org  Sat Sep  2 20:47:32 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 14:47:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1
Message-ID: <243CCA3B-B7E9-42E4-9D67-A24E7AC91154@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On behalf of the Mailman development team, I'm happy to announce the  
release of Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1.  This is primarily a  
bug fix and security release, although it also contains two new  
languages: Arabic and Vietnamese.

This version is not yet recommended for production environments,  
however testing and feedback is greatly encouraged.  My plan is to  
release 2.1.9 final by 10-Sep-2006.  A more detailed list of changes  
will be included in the final release announcement.

Mailman 2.1.9rc1.tgz is available from SourceForge:

https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103

Translators: If you have any language updates you'd like to see in  
2.1.9 final, please commit them now or send them to me.

Enjoy,
- -Barry

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

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A+azXWgaVY/C3L+HDneqFGBVZLXkKg+4IfxmKPALcEs88jHGzOpvlnuZEVzpyaon
bOYFooMqc3c=
=NWI4
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From jimpop at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 23:15:14 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 17:15:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1
In-Reply-To: <243CCA3B-B7E9-42E4-9D67-A24E7AC91154@python.org>
References: <243CCA3B-B7E9-42E4-9D67-A24E7AC91154@python.org>
Message-ID: <44F9F462.1020904@yahoo.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Question:

How can a RC1 release be listed as "Stable"?

https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103&release_id=444295

- -Jim P.

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On behalf of the Mailman development team, I'm happy to announce the  
> release of Mailman 2.1.9 release candidate 1.  This is primarily a  
> bug fix and security release, although it also contains two new  
> languages: Arabic and Vietnamese.
> 
> This version is not yet recommended for production environments,  
> however testing and feedback is greatly encouraged.  My plan is to  
> release 2.1.9 final by 10-Sep-2006.  A more detailed list of changes  
> will be included in the final release announcement.
> 
> Mailman 2.1.9rc1.tgz is available from SourceForge:
> 
> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103
> 
> Translators: If you have any language updates you'd like to see in  
> 2.1.9 final, please commit them now or send them to me.
> 
> Enjoy,
> -Barry
> 
- ------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jimpop%40yahoo.com

Security Policy:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp


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From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sun Sep  3 03:00:17 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:00:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609011251i6b299f5dge0b37fcaa62b24d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC1760200609010942340140c9049a6e@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609011023450125c9049a6a@msapiro>
	<34a783b20609011251i6b299f5dge0b37fcaa62b24d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609021800ycb7eee4yf5a88c70bd387018@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> > Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > >
> > >You may wish to write some kind of script to remove the 'more
> > >information about this list' links from the contents and index pages.
> >
> >
> > Or you can remove them from the templates before running bin/arch.
> >
> > templates/en/archtoc.html
> > templates/en/archtocnombox.html
> > templates/en/archidxhead.html
> > templates/en/archidxfoot.html
> >
> > assuming English.
>
> Hey, looking at those templates plus article.html, I can put in the
> CSS stuff I want right there; the code doesn't even have to be
> touched.

So, here's the sort of thing I meant.  This is the article.html
template, modified with a lot more structure and ID and CLASS tags.
With this I can do remarkable amounts of format control (to make it
match the appearance of an existing site) by providing a style sheet.

Now on to do the *other* templates to my satisfaction!

Ways in which this is not a drop-in replacement:

1.  Adds the list name to the page title line
2.  Requires that a style sheet file be put in the mailing list
archive directory for each list; and I haven't made the changes to
list creation to do that automatically.

It should be easy to create a style sheet that, except for #1, makes
the results look identical to the old templates, but I haven't done
that yet.

Anybody think this is worth working up more thoroughly and
contributing?  Or is it all going to be rolled over by other work
currently ongoing that will do all this in more in a more flexible
way?

!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
 <HEAD>
   <TITLE>%(listname)s: %(title)s
   </TITLE>
   <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" >
   <LINK REL="made"
HREF="mailto:%(email_url)s?Subject=%(subject_url)s;In-Reply-To=%(in_reply_to_\
url)s">
   <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow">
   <LINK REL="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../liststyle.css" />
   <LINK REL="shortcut icon" href="../listfavicon.ico" />
   %(encoding)s
   %(prev)s
   %(next)s
 </HEAD>
 <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
   <DIV ID="wholepage">
     <DIV ID="artlisthead">%(listname)s</DIV>
     <DIV ID="pagebody">
       <H1 ID="arthead">%(subject_html)s</H1>
        <DIV ID="artsend">
          <DIV ID="artsender"><SPAN CLASS="artauthname">%(author_html)s</SPAN>
          <A HREF="mailto:%(email_url)s?Subject=%(subject_url)s;In-Reply-To=%(in_reply_to_url)s"
             TITLE="%(subject_html)s" class="artauthmailto">%(email_html)s
             </A></DIV>
          <DIV ID="artsendtime"><SPAN
CLASS="artdatestr">%(datestr_html)s</SPAN></DIV>
        </DIV>
        <DIV ID="artprenav">
          <DIV class="artnav"><UL CLASS="artnav">
              %(prev_wsubj)s
              %(next_wsubj)s
               <LI> <SPAN CLASS="artnavhd">Messages sorted by:</SPAN>
                    <a href="date.html#%(sequence)s">[ date ]</a>
                    <a href="thread.html#%(sequence)s">[ thread ]</a>
                    <a href="subject.html#%(sequence)s">[ subject ]</a>
                    <a href="author.html#%(sequence)s">[ author ]</a>
               </LI>
             </UL></DIV>
        </DIV>
        <HR ID="artabove">
        <DIV ID="artbody">
    <!--beginarticle-->
    %(body)s
    <!--endarticle-->
        </DIV>
        <HR ID="artbelow">
        <DIV ID="artpostnav">
          <DIV class="artnav"><UL CLASS="artnav">
              %(prev_wsubj)s
              %(next_wsubj)s
               <LI> <SPAN CLASS="artnavhd">Messages sorted by:</SPAN>
                    <a href="date.html#%(sequence)s">[ date ]</a>
                    <a href="thread.html#%(sequence)s">[ thread ]</a>
                    <a href="subject.html#%(sequence)s">[ subject ]</a>
                    <a href="author.html#%(sequence)s">[ author ]</a>
               </LI>
             </UL></DIV>
        </DIV>
    <hr ID="artbot">
    <DIV ID="artlistinfo"><a href="%(listurl)s">More information about
the %(listname)s
    mailing list</a></DIV>
  </DIV>
</DIV>
</body></html>

And here's a stylesheet to work with it:

/* Dragaera list style sheet, as modifications to default mail archive
style sheet. */
@import url(http://dev.dragaera.info/d2.css);
/* @impurt url(/mailmanarchive.css); */
/* Local overrides */
/* For now put everything here */

div#pagebody {
    margin: 25px;
}

div#artlisthead {
    position: relative;
    overflow: hidden;
    text-align: center;
    height: 64px;
    font-size: 260%;
    font-weight: 900;
    font-family: garamond, "times new roman", times, serif;
    background-color: black;
    background-image: url(http://dev.dragaera.info/images/imperialorb.jpg);
    background-repeat: no-repeat;
    background-position: top left;
    color: rgb(167,243,239);
}
span.artauthname {
  font-weight: bold;
}
span.artdatestr {
  font-style: italic;
}
span.artnavhd {
  font-weight: bold;
}
hr#artabove { display: none }
hr#artbelow { display: none }
h1#arthead:first-letter {
  font-size: 6ex;
  color: rgb(255,131,63) ;
}
div#artbody {
    border: rgb(255,131,63) solid thin;
    margin: 25px;
    padding: 15px;
}
div#artbody pre {
      font-family: "courier new" courier "lucida console" mono;
      display: block;
      overflow: auto;
}
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From ken at sunward.org  Sun Sep  3 06:16:00 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:16:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] config_list doesn't copy the HTML forthe public
	HTML pages
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609011833370734c9049cc3@msapiro>
Message-ID: <003c01c6cf0f$aa48e1c0$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Thanks to Mark and others for getting me unstuck.  

All is well, except for one thing:  The config_list utility doesn't include
the "public HTML pages" (most importantly, the "General List Information
Page") as part of the configuration that it copies from one list to another.
This provokes three questions:

1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?
2. Or is there some other utility that does it?
3. Or is there some easier way to do it that opening the "source" and
"target" lists in the administrator we sites and cutting-and-pasting the
HTML from one to the other?

~ TIA
~ Ken


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net]
    Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 9:34 PM
    To: Ken Winter
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Some basic how-to questions
    
    Ken Winter wrote:
    
    >My host administrator says I have the privileges I need.  Indeed, I can
    get
    >to /usr/local/mailman/ through a SSH shell.  But, see, I'm more-or-less
    UNIX
    >/ LINUX ignorant, so I can't seem to get anything to happen from there.
    Can
    >you point me to some command line documentation that can get me through
    to
    >where I can do the stuff I need to do?
    
    cd /usr/local/mailman/
    
    >        1.	Delete an entire mailing list?
    
    bin/rmlist --help
    
    
    >        2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
    >        different name but the same configuration?
    
    
    bin/config_list --help
    bin/newlist --help
    
    
    >        3.	Rename a list?
    
    
    See
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.070.htp>.
    
    Also see
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.009.htp>.
    
    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From jenny11223 at gmail.com  Sun Sep  3 10:13:30 2006
From: jenny11223 at gmail.com (jenny lee)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 12:13:30 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman working,
	but very slow delivery of posted mails
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aeb5a27f0609010721u63569ce7vf5cafa37697d8ce0@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609010724r18e21404q8496dbe0e7f239ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b25c8aa60609030113y481825daq485eddb701d96cf5@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/1/06, Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello, I am running mailman / postfix on Ubuntu 6.06 (using apt-get
> > latest standard versions)
> What MTA are you using?
>
> > I have everything working correctly, except that when people send
> > mails to the list, it takes on average one hour to send the mails out
> > to subscribers!!
> Is the slowdown in Mailman, or in your MTA? (Check your MTA's queues
> when you send, see if the messages are stuck there. Check Mailman's
> qfiles/out folder to see if they're stuck there. Check the 'post' and
> 'smtp' logs to see how big the actual delay is, for Mailman.
h>im jenny, im sorry, im didnt work nice, im quit..please.,forgive me.
Thank u very much. Have a nice day.
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jenny11223%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy:
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


From antennex at swbell.net  Sun Sep  3 15:06:45 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 06:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
Message-ID: <20060903130645.320.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In the admin, I set the the "obscure address" to NO, but addresses are still shown as:
   
  "amember at somewhere.com"
   
  Setting from YES to NO had no effect. Radio button NO is still set.
   
  I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is more exposed than before.
   
  Anyone else have this issue -- or solution?
   
  Thanks!


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Sun Sep  3 18:51:16 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 12:51:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
Message-ID: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>

I know this isn't a postfix forum but if anyone will know it is this list.  Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.
--------------------------------------------
http://listserver.weatherserver.net
Weather Alerts, Traffic Alerts, Toronto Fire CAD Alerts
All to your email, 24/7/365
*****Visit us today*****

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep  3 20:01:57 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:01:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <p06240502c120c8d73b9a@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:51 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:

>  I know this isn't a postfix forum

Correct.

>                                     but if anyone will know it is this
>  list.

Perhaps.

>         Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the
>  email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.

Actually, this is a pure postfix question that has nothing to do with 
Mailman or mailing lists.  Try searching their documentation and 
their FAQ at postfix.org.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep  3 20:04:09 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:04:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903130645.320.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060903130645.320.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c120c9315085@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

>   I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
>  with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is
>  more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs.  Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere.  Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From antennex at swbell.net  Sun Sep  3 20:36:06 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:36:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c120c9315085@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060903183606.3913.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

> I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
> with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is
> more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs. Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere. Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, 


I just switched my mail list management from majordom to mailman within the past week. All of my archives prior to the day of the switch are "x"ed out.
   
  I'm not concerned about the few that mailman obscured, just wanted the normal address to appear on each message in the new archive files by mailman.
   
  My archiving program takes the mailman archive files (after the fact) and prepares the archives with any and all email addresses that appear in mailman's mbox or flat text archive files and generates the archives I have over 10,000 messages with the email obscured as:
  amember at somewhere.com to:
  amember at xxxxxxxxx.xxx
   
  whereas, mailman does this:
  amember at somewhere.com
   
  My old method of obscuring is much more obscured.
   
  So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work?? That's all I need so the messages arrive in the mailman archive files with a whole original email address format.



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep  3 20:55:16 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:55:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903183606.3913.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060903183606.3913.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240504c120d53d2368@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

>  So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work??

Because you still need to regenerate the archives, which you 
apparently did not do.

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From bdf at deflorence.com  Sun Sep  3 21:29:27 2006
From: bdf at deflorence.com (BdF)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 20:29:27 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] French Accented Characters become "?"
Message-ID: <gwh.44fb2cea.cc0b.96b@lon-mail-1.gradwell.net>

Hi there,

We run a 400 user mailing list (www.lutecium.org) with Mailman 2.1.8-2, on
Linux (Debian) Kernel 2.6.16-2. The main language is French, but our users
also use English, Spanish and Portuguese.

Some of our subscribers have complained about receiving the list's emails
with ALL the French accented characters replaced by "?", which obviously
makes reading difficult, if not ambiguous. The charset used by the original
sender does not seem to matter (see examples below after my signature).
Further, they insist that this happens ONLY on emails received from our
discussion list.

I have performed the following test:

-email from me in both TXT and HTML (with French accented characters
???????) directly to user(s): no modifications.
-(same) email from me in both TXT and HTML (with French accented characters
???????)to the subscription list: user(s) receive it with all accented
characters replaced by "?".

Trawling the Mailman's archives, I have not found something referring
specifically to this issue, although I have seen emails from people having
problem with German and Japanese characters.

So:
-is this a known issue?
-If not, is it a user or a Mailman issue?
-If a user issue, does it take place on sending (when being composed) or on
receiving (when being read)?
-If a Mailman issue, what settings should be changed?

Cheers (from London) for all your good work
===
Bruno
www.deflorence.com
===


EXAMPLES OF MANGLED EMAILS AS RECEIVED BY USERS VIA OUR LIST
==========
EXAMPLE 1
==========
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:36:41 +0200
> From: Yann Leroux <yann.leroux at laposte.net>
> Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] quelques notes de lecture sur 
> l'agressivit? en psychanalyse et son extension dans le champ du 
> politique
> To: Groupe de travail pour la psychanalyse lacanienne 
> <lutecium-group at lutecium.org>
> Message-ID: <44F2FF79.4080704 at laposte.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Ecoutez Catherine, vous ?tes fatigante a dire partout la meme chose : 
> la jouissance, la loi, le symbolique, les 
> mechants-psy-qui-vous-veulent-du-mal et cela serait coquasse si vous 
> ne vous ?tiez pas instaur? psychanalyste en six mois.

==========
EXAMPLE 2
==========
Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:04:54 +0200
> From: " roseli at infonie.fr " <roseli at infonie.fr>
> Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] quartier Lacan
> To: " lutecium-group " <lutecium-group at lutecium.org>
> Message-ID: <J4R2G6$0E1CD64E1A2F05203DC585153ED34AE2 at aliceadsl.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> voil? le site sur lequel j'ai obtenu les vid?os de Lacan ? Louvain.
> http://parolesdesjours.free.fr/lacan.htm
>
> utecium-group: Document interne au Groupe de Travail Lutecium.
> Ne doit pas etre diffuse hors du groupe.
> ---
> comme de juste, la premi?re partie vient apr?s la deuxi?me;) si 
> quelqu'un avait louvain en int?grale, je serais tr?s int?ress?

==========
EXAMPLE 3
==========
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:40:50 +0100
From: "BdF" <bdf at deflorence.com>
Subject: Re: [Lutecium-group] quartier Lacan
To: "'Groupe de travail pour la psychanalyse lacanienne'"
	<lutecium-group at lutecium.org>
Message-ID: <gwh.44f435ad.fa2b.a2 at lon-mail-3.gradwell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Ah, merci de cette indication Roseli, je m'occupe de les r?cup?rer et d'en
faire une int?grale.

D'autre part: si vous recevez un mail de Lutecium comportant des caract?res
bizarres, envoyer le moi (en FORWARD) par l'interm?diaire
Help-Me at lutecium.org.



From antennex at swbell.net  Sun Sep  3 23:54:51 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:54:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240504c120d53d2368@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060903215451.12699.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

> So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work??

Because you still need to regenerate the archives, which you 
apparently did not do.

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, 



  Brad: Sorry I'm so thick-headed, but didn't realize it wouldn'l just start feeding the archives with the new setting. So, I need to regenerate the archives for the setting to take effect as you have twice said.
   
  Since I'm just learning mailman, what would my line command & flags be to do that.
   
  Or, your second suggestion: "...to modify your post-processing script.... ", how would I modify the post-processing script -- so I don't screw it up?
   
  Thanks for your support on this one.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 00:11:49 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 15:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903215451.12699.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060903221149.95416.qmail@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Jack Stone <antennex at swbell.net> wrote:    Brad Knowles 
wrote: At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, 

Sorry, I found how to regenerate the archives in the FAQ search.
   
  But, haven't found this one yet:
  Or, your second suggestion: "...to modify your post-processing script.... ", how would I modify the post-processing script -- so I don't screw it up?

Thanks for your support on this one.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
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Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp




(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 00:35:21 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 15:35:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060903221149.95416.qmail@web82402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060903223521.37869.qmail@web82407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Jack Stone <antennex at swbell.net> wrote:    

Jack Stone wrote: Brad Knowles 
wrote: At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

Did the regen of the archives and NADA  Just the same email format presented by mailman archives:
  amember at somewhere.com
   
  Now what.
   
  On the second suggestion:
  I'm a bit off wave today -- you meant modify MY script. I'd rather mailman do what it says when the knobs are reset.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From maltokyo at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 02:43:45 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:43:45 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>

Answer:
In postfix config, add
relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

On 04/09/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 12:51 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:
>
> >  I know this isn't a postfix forum
>
> Correct.
>
> >                                     but if anyone will know it is this
> >  list.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> >         Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the
> >  email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.
>
> Actually, this is a pure postfix question that has nothing to do with
> Mailman or mailing lists.  Try searching their documentation and
> their FAQ at postfix.org.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/maltokyo%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Mon Sep  4 03:46:34 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:46:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation><p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>

Thank you for the reply. At least some people are able to answer questions 
rather then replying with more then just read the FAQ's
--------------------------------------------
http://listserver.weatherserver.net
Weather Alerts, Traffic Alerts, Toronto Fire CAD Alerts
All to your email, 24/7/365
*****Visit us today*****
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mal" <maltokyo at gmail.com>
To: <Mailman-Users at python.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question


Answer:
In postfix config, add
relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

On 04/09/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 12:51 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:
>
> >  I know this isn't a postfix forum
>
> Correct.
>
> >                                     but if anyone will know it is this
> >  list.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> >         Is there a way to setup postfix that if it cannot deliver the
> >  email itself it will relay it to another server for delivery.
>
> Actually, this is a pure postfix question that has nothing to do with
> Mailman or mailing lists.  Try searching their documentation and
> their FAQ at postfix.org.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/maltokyo%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: 
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>
------------------------------------------------------
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Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
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Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jason%40weatherserver.net

Security Policy: 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 04:03:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:03:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c12139a32dc3@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:43 AM +0900 2006-09-04, Mal wrote:

>  In postfix config, add
>  relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

Actually, that does not achieve what the OP was asking for.  That 
would cause all e-mail to be routed through the given machine, and 
not just e-mail for which no obvious local user could be found.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 04:04:30 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 21:04:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation><p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.
	210>	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <p06240501c12139d73a1e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:46 PM -0400 2006-09-03, Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:

>  Thank you for the reply. At least some people are able to answer questions
>  rather then replying with more then just read the FAQ's

Actually, Mal's reply doesn't help.  It would cause all e-mail to be 
routed through the given machine, as opposed to just the unknown 
local users.

I don't want to give you a wrong answer, so I want to make sure that 
you get the right answer from the correct sources.  Don't just 
believe anyone on this list, because that's not what this list is 
intended to support.


I'm sorry, sometimes the best answer really is to have you read the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From tmz at pobox.com  Mon Sep  4 04:26:42 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:26:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
References: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c6cfc3$f4242660$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <20060904022641.GG17277@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:
> Thank you for the reply. At least some people are able to answer
> questions rather then replying with more then just read the FAQ's

You ask an off-topic question here and then you have the nerve to make
a remark like that directed at one of the more helpful people on the
list?  Wow.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Man was made at the end of the week's work when God was tired.
    -- Mark Twain

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From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Mon Sep  4 08:03:26 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:03:26 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>

* Mal <maltokyo at gmail.com>:
> Answer:
> In postfix config, add
> relayhost = smtp.yoursmtphost.com

No, I think he wants to look into "luser_relay"

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From maltokyo at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 08:52:49 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 15:52:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609032352v65a6fdffv710c16ec273762f5@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for causing the fuss..  I thought he was looking for a solution
to send all mails out using an smtp server other than his own.  I will
take more care to properly read the requirment next time.


From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Mon Sep  4 10:03:17 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 04:03:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation><p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210><aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com><20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609032352v65a6fdffv710c16ec273762f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c6cff8$94932c70$1400000a@workstation>

I am looking for a way for postfix to send mail it cannot deliver to the 
outside world itself to another server on the lan.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mal" <maltokyo at gmail.com>
To: <Mailman-Users at python.org>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question


Sorry for causing the fuss..  I thought he was looking for a solution
to send all mails out using an smtp server other than his own.  I will
take more care to properly read the requirment next time.
------------------------------------------------------
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Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
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Unsubscribe: 
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Security Policy: 
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From maltokyo at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 10:10:28 2006
From: maltokyo at gmail.com (Mal)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:10:28 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix Question
In-Reply-To: <000c01c6cff8$94932c70$1400000a@workstation>
References: <001401c6cf79$2c23e460$1400000a@workstation>
	<p06240502c120c8d73b9a@10.0.1.210>
	<aeb5a27f0609031743w63e42a0dq16ce34c443697b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060904060326.GF25568@charite.de>
	<aeb5a27f0609032352v65a6fdffv710c16ec273762f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<000c01c6cff8$94932c70$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <aeb5a27f0609040110t34778497jf1cf2265a9c65f0f@mail.gmail.com>

In that case, I think my original reply is your solution.


From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 16:04:37 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c120c9315085@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

> I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
> with "xxxx"s, but now without the "@" regular format, the address is
> more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs. Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere. Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, 



Brad: I did what you advised but mailman does not adjust to the new setting of NO to not Obscure. Yes, I have regenerated the archives -- the ones that belong to mailman of course.
   
  I cannot modify the "post-prosessing script" because I use the program "Mhonarc" to generate the searchable version of my archives since Mailman does not include that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring (completely) the email addresses much better than just
  amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the regular email address to see it and convert to amember at xxxxxx.xx
   
  Those wishing to harvest emails can certainly run a script to put the Mailman Obsured method back to a full email -- I cannot tho.
   
  Is the obscure a buggy feature or do you have any other suggestions. I haven't seen any other answers in my search.
   
  I have watched Mailman mature for years before switching from majordomo. The only aspect keeping me from doing it was the messy archives that could not set the right dates of the message and showed dates far into the future.
   
  Too messy for a list with scientists, academics, engineers and the like who would be very picky about that.
   
  Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & I'll go away -- happy as a "clam" if I get the right answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on this list with this problem.
   
  Thanks for tolerating me on this important issue (for us).
   
  See the tech mag that uses the list:
  http://www.antennex.com
   
  I am the publisher, but a mediocre Sys Adm.



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From drew.tenenholz at isid.org  Mon Sep  4 16:05:25 2006
From: drew.tenenholz at isid.org (Drew Tenenholz)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:05:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Date for Posts - How is it decided?
Message-ID: <v04220805c121e183f050@[192.168.209.100]>

Folks --

What is the 'official' date for a post?  I am the admin for a small, 
moderated where the following seems to be happening:

1) The daily digest lists several posts from yesterday/early toady 
and has a delivery date of 'today'.
2) The message archive can be used to show the exact day the message 
was posted (today or yesterday).
3) Individual posts are being received with delivery dates exactly 
ONE MONTH in the FUTURE!

Is this a Mailman setting, or is could it be the moderator has set 
their clock incorrectly set?

Thanks in Advance,
Drew Tenenholz


From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Mon Sep  4 17:24:26 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:24:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <web-3225508@commpartners.com>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
  Jack Stone <antennex at swbell.net> wrote:
> 

>   
>  I cannot modify the "post-prosessing script" because I 
>use the program "Mhonarc" to generate the searchable 
>version of my archives since Mailman does not include 
>that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring 
>(completely) the email addresses much better than just
>  amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the 
>regular email address to see it and convert to 
>amember at xxxxxx.xx

[snip]


>  Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & 
>I'll go away -- happy as a "clam" if I get the right 
>answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on this 
>list with this problem.
>

I think what you are asking is specific to MHonArc. 
 Mailman only calls MHonArc as an external archiver and 
then Mailman assumes that external archiver knows what it 
is doing.

I believe what you are looking for is called "SPAMMODE" in 
MHonArc.

"SPAMMODE determines if MHonArc will perform actions to 
deter spam address harvesters. If SPAMMODE is true, it 
changes the default values of various resources that 
display email addresses."

I don't know the specifics of enabling this in MHonArc as 
I have just started looking at this myself.  You will want 
to take a look at the MHonArc site for specifics, 
www.mhonarc.org

--Karl


From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep  4 18:47:54 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:47:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <web-3225508@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <20060904164754.30689.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Karl Zander <kwz-mm at commpartners.com> wrote:    On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Jack Stone wrote:
> 

> 
> I cannot modify the "post-prosessing script" because I 
>use the program "Mhonarc" to generate the searchable 
>version of my archives since Mailman does not include 
>that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring 
>(completely) the email addresses much better than just
> amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the 
>regular email address to see it and convert to 
>amember at xxxxxx.xx

[snip]


> Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & 
>I'll go away -- happy as a "clam" if I get the right 
>answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on this 
>list with this problem.
>

I think what you are asking is specific to MHonArc. 
Mailman only calls MHonArc as an external archiver and 
then Mailman assumes that external archiver knows what it 
is doing.

I believe what you are looking for is called "SPAMMODE" in 
MHonArc.

"SPAMMODE determines if MHonArc will perform actions to 
deter spam address harvesters. If SPAMMODE is true, it 
changes the default values of various resources that 
display email addresses."

I don't know the specifics of enabling this in MHonArc as 
I have just started looking at this myself. You will want 
to take a look at the MHonArc site for specifics, 
www.mhonarc.org

--Karl
   
  Karl, you missed the point. Sorry I'm just not being clear enough. I do not have Mailman calling MhonArc. I just want Mailman to do want it is told to do first and all would be fine. I do use SPAMMODE on MHonArc to obtain the "xxxx"es to obliterate the email addresses AFTER Mailman has generated the archives. Mailman doe not depend on MHonArch, but MHonArch's SPAMMODE depends on the output files of Mailman. I cannot get the Mailman knob to NOT Obscure to do that. It just keeps obscuring no matter what I do.
   
  If I run MHonArc on the Mailman mylist.mbox, which contains the email addresses in full, then it works. Alas tho, the archive mylist.mbox doesn't split the months as does the "mylist-month.txt" So, I switched over to using the "txt" archive to feed MHonArc and then discovered the new problem of the Mailman's method of obscuring the addresses which now defeats MHonArch. I am very familiar with use of MHonArch.
   
  Any other thoughts....???




(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 19:42:55 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:42:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Date for Posts - How is it decided?
In-Reply-To: <v04220805c121e183f050@[192.168.209.100]>
References: <v04220805c121e183f050@[192.168.209.100]>
Message-ID: <p06240505c12214dab718@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:05 AM -0400 2006-09-04, Drew Tenenholz wrote:

>  What is the 'official' date for a post?

Normally, the official date for a message in the archives is taken 
from the "Date:" header which is put on the message by the sending 
mail client (MUA) or the first mail server (MTA) to touch the 
message.  The Internet standards require that the "Date:" header be 
present on all messages, but some clients do not create them. 
Therefore, most mail servers will automatically add one if it is not 
already present.

The problem is that many clients have system dates that are seriously 
screwed up.  They should be running the Network Time Protocol (NTP), 
but most of them don't even bother to do any kind of monitoring or 
setting of the date information.

Now, recent versions of Mailman have a way to deal with this issue -- 
see FAQ 3.63.  However, this does require a change in the mm_cfg.py 
file, which has to be done by the site admin.  If you are using a 
hosted list service, you may not be able to get support from the site 
admin to perform functions like this -- see FAQ 1.32.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep  4 19:50:18 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:50:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:04 AM -0700 2006-09-04, Jack Stone wrote:

>  Brad: I did what you advised but mailman does not adjust to the new setting
>  of NO to not Obscure. Yes, I have regenerated the archives -- the ones
>  that belong to mailman of course.

Hmm.  In which case, I'm not sure I've got any answers for you. 
There seems to be some sort of disconnect between the Mailman archive 
generation process and your custom third-party process, and the 
techniques that have worked on every other Mailman server that I have 
ever encountered do not appear to work on your machine.

Perhaps someone else will be able to provide some insight.

>  Is the obscure a buggy feature or do you have any other suggestions. I
>  haven't seen any other answers in my search.

The Mailman method of obscuring addresses has always worked as 
described, in all installations I have ever encountered or heard of. 
I have never heard of anyone having the kinds of problems you are 
seeing, but then it sounds like you're tying these processes together 
in a non-standard way, and I'm afraid that I will not be able to 
provide any further assistance.

>  I have watched Mailman mature for years before switching from majordomo.
>  The only aspect keeping me from doing it was the messy archives that
>  could not set the right dates of the message and showed dates far into
>  the future.

That sounds like a problem that was resolved a while back.  See FAQ 3.63.

>  Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do & I'll go away --
>  happy as a "clam" if I get the right answer from anyone -- unless I'm
>  the only one on this list with this problem.

You're the only one who's ever reported this problem, so far as I 
know.  All the other sites that use MHonArc have tied that in through 
the standard Mailman third-party archive mechanism, and I have not 
heard of anyone having these kinds of problems with that technique.

Nor have I heard of anyone using the standard third-party archive 
mechanism wanting or needing to change the value of the Mailman 
address obscuration feature, because that is implemented in the 
Pipermail archive system within Mailman, and that is by-passed when 
you go through the third-party archive system.

So, I'm not sure that anyone is going to be able to help you, but we 
can always hope.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dan at music.memphis.edu  Mon Sep  4 21:06:43 2006
From: dan at music.memphis.edu (Dan Phillips)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:06:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>


On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> The Mailman method of obscuring addresses has always worked as
> described, in all installations I have ever encountered or heard of.

Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure  
the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting  
files are used or what further processing is done on them.

Here's the setting:

> obscure_addresses (privacy): Show member addresses so they're not  
> directly recognizable as email addresses?
> Setting this option causes member email addresses to be transformed  
> when they are presented on list web pages (both in text and as  
> links), so they're not trivially recognizable as email addresses.  
> The intention is to prevent the addresses from being snarfed up by  
> automated web scanners for use by spammers.


Just out of curiosity, I tried the same thing. I confirmed that the  
list.mbox did indeed contain the complete, whole, unadulterated  
addresses, set privacy options-->obscure_addresses to NO, then ran  
bin/arch --wipe on a small test list. The newly created year- 
month.txt files did still include the standard "xxx at xxx" obscured  
email addresses.

Maybe we're just trying the wrong setting; is the obscured address a  
pipermail constant? Is there some other setting that controls this?

Dan

====================
Dan Phillips
Associate Professor
Rudi E. Scheidt School of Music
University of Memphis
dan at music.memphis.edu





From osers4 at verizon.net  Mon Sep  4 23:35:00 2006
From: osers4 at verizon.net (Ralph Oser)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 21:35:00 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Consolidated Admin of Multiple MM lists?
Message-ID: <0J5300MXQ81X55BD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>

Happy Labor Day - 

Is it possible to tweak the individual settings on our 60+ MM lists at one time?  Our site runs cPanel to provide us admin access to all our website functions, including access to individual MM lists via each lists admin panel.  It sure would be nice not to have to log into each list and make the changes one..by...one.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

R

Ralph C. Oser
Secretary
Alumni & Friends of Yorktown
     High School, Inc.
admin at yorktownalums.org

Serving the extended  Yorktown community since 1996.

From antennex at swbell.net  Tue Sep  5 00:16:32 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 15:16:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>
Message-ID: <20060904221632.56237.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Dan Phillips <dan at music.memphis.edu> wrote:    
On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> The Mailman method of obscuring addresses has always worked as
> described, in all installations I have ever encountered or heard of.

Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure 
the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting 
files are used or what further processing is done on them.

Dan: THANK YOU so much for going to the trouble of reproducing the problem! I thought I was losing my mind or encapable of explaining the problem.
   
  If it is a bug, hope the maintainer is listening to include a fix in the upcoming new version.....???


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 01:07:04 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:07:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>
References: <20060904140437.60156.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240506c122162604f4@[10.0.1.210]>
	<D23A918B-B784-449B-8226-E4C9FEE86B63@music.memphis.edu>
Message-ID: <p06240507c122604f282c@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:06 PM -0500 2006-09-04, Dan Phillips wrote:

>  Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure
>  the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting
>  files are used or what further processing is done on them.

I understand.  The problem is that the standard method of using a 
third-party archive solution should eliminate Pipermail from the 
picture altogether, and instead replace it with the third-party 
alternative.  I have never before heard of anyone taking the output 
from Pipermail and then putting that into a third-party archive tool 
-- that would be like taking the output from sendmail and then piping 
that through postfix, and clearly redundant.

I think maybe the OP may want to review the recommended method of 
using an external archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman, such as 
described in FAQ 4.4.

>  Maybe we're just trying the wrong setting; is the obscured address a
>  pipermail constant? Is there some other setting that controls this?

Did you look at your mm_cfg.py to see what the setting was for 
ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS?  Here's the comment from Defaults.py 
for Mailman 2.1.5, if you did not over-ride this setting:

# Pipermail archives contain the raw email addresses of the posting authors.
# Some view this as a goldmine for spam harvesters.  Set this to Yes to
# moderately obscure email addresses, but note that this breaks mailto: URLs
# in the archives too.
ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = Yes

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 01:09:03 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:09:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Consolidated Admin of Multiple MM lists?
In-Reply-To: <0J5300MXQ81X55BD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>
References: <0J5300MXQ81X55BD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <p06240508c122621f9507@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:35 PM +0000 2006-09-04, Ralph Oser wrote:

>  Is it possible to tweak the individual settings on our 60+ MM lists at
>  one time?

You could use a "withlist" Python script.  That is, assuming you (as 
site admin) have privileged command-line access to the server where 
Mailman is installed.

>             Our site runs cPanel to provide us admin access to all our
>  website functions, including access to individual MM lists via each
>  lists admin panel.  It sure would be nice not to have to log into each
>  list and make the changes one..by...one.

See FAQs 1.32 and 6.11.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From antennex at swbell.net  Tue Sep  5 04:06:00 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240507c122604f282c@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060905020600.3299.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:     At 2:06 PM -0500 2006-09-04, Dan Phillips wrote:

> Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure
> the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting
> files are used or what further processing is done on them.

  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand. The problem is that the standard method of using a 
third-party archive solution should eliminate Pipermail from the 
picture altogether, and instead replace it with the third-party 
alternative. I have never before heard of anyone taking the output 
from Pipermail and then putting that into a third-party archive tool 
-- that would be like taking the output from sendmail and then piping 
that through postfix, and clearly redundant.

I think maybe the OP may want to review the recommended method of 
using an external archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman, such as 
described in FAQ 4.4.
Brad Knowles,
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
  Considering I have only switched from majordomo (used since 1997) on several lists a week+ ago, I just had not found all of the knobs yet -- nor did I even know what knobs I would need to twist yet to provide the archives needed. All other things are running great and I'm glad I made the switch finally.
   
  Adding "ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = No"
  to mm_cfg.py did the trick and now have the solution.
   
  I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster compared to my manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every 15 minutes to display the added messages. My need for a "fix" was minor IF I had just know where to look.
   
  Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the "display" of the archives in Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they have been used to for several years -- and is not available for email harvesting. I still want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my scripts use that monthly file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to the members or one that would join to mis-use it for spam lists.
   
  Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman "X"ed out the email addresses as well rather than the present "obscuring". I can imagine it would be little effort for spammers to download the Mailman archives and then run a script to return the emails from "xyz at adomain.com" right back to xyz at adomain.com. All the info is there gieving a false sense of security. xyz at xxxxxx.xx seems a lot safer to me.

  Anyway, truly appreciate the help from you Brad and especially Dan who understood my issue.
   
  I'll spend more time in the Defaults.py looking at more knobs there.
  



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Tue Sep  5 05:39:28 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:09:28 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "bug" found when clicking sender filter privacy
	option
Message-ID: <44FCF170.7080000@kromestudios.com>

Hi All, apologies in advanced for the length of this post.... I have hit 
a "bug" when clicking on the sender filter privacy option... Would 
anyone be able to decipher the traceback and suggest what might be the 
problem and/or where I may be able to resolve it.. (mailman v 2.1.5)

Thanks :)
Spyro


--Trace back from /var/log/mailman/error--

Sep 05 13:35:21 2006 admin(13171): 
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
admin(13171): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.5 -----]
admin(13171): [----- Traceback ------]
admin(13171): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(13171):   File "/var/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 110, in 
run_main
admin(13171):     main()
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 198, 
in main
admin(13171):     show_results(mlist, doc, category, subcat, cgidata)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 522, 
in show_results
admin(13171):     form.AddItem(show_variables(mlist, category, subcat, 
cgidata, doc))
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 571, 
in show_variables
admin(13171):     add_options_table_item(mlist, category, subcat, table, 
item)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 586, 
in add_options_table_item
admin(13171):     val = get_item_gui_value(mlist, category, kind, 
varname, params, extra)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 625, 
in get_item_gui_value
admin(13171):     value = getattr(mlist, varname)
admin(13171):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 144, 
in __getattr__
admin(13171):     raise AttributeError, name
admin(13171): AttributeError: nonmember_rejection_notice
admin(13171): [----- Python Information -----]
admin(13171): sys.version     =   2.3.5 (#2, Sep  4 2005, 22:01:42)
[GCC 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-13)]
admin(13171): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python
admin(13171): sys.prefix      =   /usr
admin(13171): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr
admin(13171): sys.path        =   /usr
admin(13171): sys.platform    =   linux2
admin(13171): [----- Environment Variables -----]
admin(13171):   HTTP_COOKIE: 
spyro+admin=28020000006948f0fc44732800000065656362343935333231383231653464316531653035386437623761653663356161366565373434
admin(13171):   SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) 
mod_python/3.1.3 Python/2.3.5 PHP/4.3.10-16 mod_perl/1.999.21 Perl/v5.8.4
admin(13171):   SCRIPT_NAME: /cgi-bin/mailman/admin
admin(13171):   SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.0.54 (Debian 
GNU/Linux) mod_python/3.1.3 Python/2.3.5 PHP/4.3.10-16 mod_perl/1.999.21 
Perl/v5.8.4 Server at mail.domain.com Port 80</address>
admin(13171):
admin(13171):   REQUEST_METHOD: GET
admin(13171):   HTTP_KEEP_ALIVE: 300
admin(13171):   SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1
admin(13171):   QUERY_STRING:
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
admin(13171):   HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 
5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.6) Gecko/20060728 Firefox/1.5.0.6
admin(13171):   HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive
admin(13171):   HTTP_REFERER: 
http://mail.domain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/listname/privacy
admin(13171):   SERVER_NAME: mail.domain.com
admin(13171):   REMOTE_ADDR: 192.168.99.120
admin(13171):   PATH_TRANSLATED: /var/www/listname/privacy/sender
admin(13171):   SERVER_PORT: 80
admin(13171):   SERVER_ADDR: 192.168.99.201
admin(13171):   DOCUMENT_ROOT: /var/www/
admin(13171):   PYTHONPATH: /var/lib/mailman
admin(13171):   SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/admin
admin(13171):   SERVER_ADMIN: webmaster at localhost
admin(13171):   HTTP_HOST: mail.domain.com
admin(13171):   REQUEST_URI: /cgi-bin/mailman/admin/listname/privacy/sender
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT: 
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
admin(13171):   GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1
admin(13171):   REMOTE_PORT: 3564
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5
admin(13171):   HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip,deflate
admin(13171):   PATH_INFO: /listname/privacy/sender



This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 13:14:22 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 06:14:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060905020600.3299.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060905020600.3299.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1230b363629@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:06 PM -0700 2006-09-04, Jack Stone wrote:

>  I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external
>  archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster [...]

It's not as clean as we would like, no.  That is an area we are 
hoping to improve upon for future releases.

>                                                           [...] compared
>  to my manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every
>  15 minutes to display the added messages. My need for a "fix" was minor
>  IF I had just know where to look.

Therein lies the key.  I'm not sure what documentation you have or 
have not read, and which FAQ entries you have or have not seen, but 
the documentation should have made reference to the mm_cfg.py file 
and the fact that you should look through the Defaults.py file to see 
what options you may want to change, etc....

If you can tell us what parts of the documentation are not clear, we 
will try to get those fixed.

>  Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the "display" of the archives
>  in Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they
>  have been used to for several years -- and is not available for email
>  harvesting.

I'm not clear on what you're asking for.  Could you elaborate?

>               I still want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my
>  scripts use that monthly file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to
>  the members or one that would join to mis-use it for spam lists.

If you search the FAQ for "archive", you might find some relevant information.

>  Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman "X"ed out the email addresses as
>  well rather than the present "obscuring".

That's another area of improvement that we have planned for future versions.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From antennex at swbell.net  Tue Sep  5 14:56:17 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c1230b363629@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 7:06 PM -0700 2006-09-04, Jack Stone wrote:

> I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external
> archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster [...]

It's not as clean as we would like, no. That is an area we are 
hoping to improve upon for future releases.
   
  <JLS> Needless for me to say, Mailman is a great system and everything cannot be done at once. Actually, I have found Mailman a lot easier to *install* than majordomo. MM worked right out of the box, but MJD can be a pain about permissions and configuring as matured as it is. I helped work up a separate installer script (including for vhosts) that made it much more of a breeze.

> [...] compared
> to my manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every
> 15 minutes to display the added messages. My need for a "fix" was minor
> IF I had just know where to look.

Therein lies the key. I'm not sure what documentation you have or 
have not read, and which FAQ entries you have or have not seen, but 
the documentation should have made reference to the mm_cfg.py file 
and the fact that you should look through the Defaults.py file to see 
what options you may want to change, etc....

If you can tell us what parts of the documentation are not clear, we 
will try to get those fixed.
   
  <JLS> Actually, because of the time crunch, I just hadn't had time to read everything although I did quickly scan the FAQ and thoroughly man pages. I tested of course on a test list until I thought I had everything working to move over to a production list. My main concern was not to interupt the list.
   
  The knob in the web site configs about changing from YES to NO had me distracted thinking it was the place to change my setting for this preference. I can tell from Dan's last post, he is also still confused about what that does there. That web knob caused me to be distracted from looking more thoroughly in other places -- like the Defaults.py -- even though I had looked at some things there -- but just for other things at the time -- like the vhost designation -- which I fixed by using the CLI "newlist" command.
   
  Basically, I had to discover which things were better to use the CLI or the web configs. In my experience, I found to create the newlist from CLI and then go to the net list's web site and configure things -- except of course, the archive issue on obscuring. It's real purpose is still a mystery to me as I didn't observe any change on anything bu switching from YES to NO.

> Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the "display" of the archives
> in Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they
> have been used to for several years -- and is not available for email
> harvesting.

I'm not clear on what you're asking for. Could you elaborate?
   
  <JLS> Now that I have successfully changed the obscuring to non-obscuring, the Mailman archive now shows the email addresses which would be available to any spammer that took the time to join -- my site is especially at risk now that I even ID'ed the domain during this thread. My fault in doing that. It would be a simple matter for a spammer to download the compressed archives and then run them through an email extraction script. As I opined before, even the obsured used now in Mailman archives would not be safe if a spammer used a special script of the downloaded archive files to convert the "xyz at adomain.net" I couldn't do it, but a good script guy could, I imagine.
   
  So, I just need to disable access to the Mailman version of the archive which I consider vulnerable to harvesting in its present form. Plus, I don't need it with my own archives available and they are safe.

> I still want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my
> scripts use that monthly file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to
> the members or one that would join to mis-use it for spam lists.

If you search the FAQ for "archive", you might find some relevant information.
   
  <JLS> Plan to do more of that now I have time.

> Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman "X"ed out the email addresses as
> well rather than the present "obscuring".

That's another area of improvement that we have planned for future versions.

  <JLS> Just makes a great product all the better!! Keep up the good work and many thanks for the help on my one important issue here. Didn't realize this hadn't come up before.
  
As I said before, I have watched MM mature for several years and even installed it once a couple of years ago (2 or 3) -- but didn't think it was ready until now. Many things have been fixed.improved since then.
   
  BTW: One other thing & not meaning to be nit picky, but are you aware that FBSD ports show this program as containing numerous vulnerabilities?
   
  Here's what the portaudit sez, just FYI:
  Affected package: mailman-2.1.8_3
Type of problem: mailman -- Multiple Vulnerabilities.
Reference: <http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/portaudit/fffa9257-3c17-11db-86ab-00123ffe8333.html>


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk  Tue Sep  5 16:54:43 2006
From: R.Bannocks at nhm.ac.uk (Robert Bannocks)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:54:43 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting list owner's admin rights
Message-ID: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDAF0@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>

Is it possible to restrict the options that list owners can set.  In
particular I want to stop list administrator

For all lists from setting up USENET news gateway-ing and stop some but
not all list administrators from archiving messages.

Regards




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 17:30:32 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:30:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>

At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 17:42:34 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:42:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem
In-Reply-To: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1234a2d1618@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:56 AM -0700 2006-09-05, Jack Stone wrote:

>  The knob in the web site configs about changing from YES to NO had
>  me distracted thinking it was the place to change my setting for
>  this preference.

Yeah, I'm confused too.  I'm hoping that one of the core Mailman 
developers will respond to this thread and tell me what it is that 
I've missed.

>  So, I just need to disable access to the Mailman version of the archive
>  which I consider vulnerable to harvesting in its present form. Plus, I
>  don't need it with my own archives available and they are safe.

See FAQ 3.3, and scroll down to the bottom.

>  BTW: One other thing & not meaning to be nit picky, but are you aware
>  that FBSD ports show this program as containing numerous vulnerabilities?

I was not personally aware of this issue, but apparently the Mailman 
developers are.

>  Reference: 
><http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/portaudit/fffa9257-3c17-11db-86ab-00123ffe8333.html>

This page links to some others, including 
<http://secunia.com/advisories/21732/>, which includes the text:

	Solution:
	The vulnerabilities have been fixed in version 2.1.9rc1 and will
	also be fixed in the upcoming 2.1.9 version soon.

Note that the Mailman developers have already upgraded us to 2.1.9rc1 
for all our lists hosted on python.org, including this one.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 17:48:07 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:48:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting list owner's admin rights
In-Reply-To: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDAF0@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>
References: <82A8FC2BA38D7F46998355F69C861BAFBFDAF0@FRANK.nhm.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1234c531e19@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:54 PM +0100 2006-09-05, Robert Bannocks wrote:

>  Is it possible to restrict the options that list owners can set.

To a limited degree, yes.  See Defaults.py and FAQ 1.32.

>  In particular I want to stop list administrator
>  For all lists from setting up USENET news gateway-ing and stop some but
>  not all list administrators from archiving messages.

I don't believe that this is possible, but you could always try it 
and let us know how it works out for you.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 17:51:39 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:51:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure
 addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
>  enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
>  remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
>  go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
>  nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?

First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject 
line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message 
with a new subject.

Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not 
yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 18:17:48 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:17:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >  At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
> >  enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
> >  remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
> >  go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
> >  nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?
>
> First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
> line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
> with a new subject.

Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
did, and it wasn't my intention.


> Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
> yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.

I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep  5 18:28:29 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:28:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905092019.03643b08@crimson-dragon.com>

David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 09:17 9/5/2006:
>On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> > At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >
> > >  At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you
> > >  enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from
> > >  remembering that password for me.  It's extremely annoying, I have to
> > >  go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is
> > >  nearly daily.  Anybody have any ideas?
> >
> > First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
> > line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
> > with a new subject.
>
>Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
>did, and it wasn't my intention.

It is very likely that you simply hit Reply in your MUA which 
included the In-Reply-To: and/or References: header(s) in the e-mail. 
These are the headers that allow MUAs to do threading and are also 
used by Pipermail (Mailman's default archiver) to thread the messages 
in the archives.

By just hitting Reply, you have attached the message to a particular 
thread which has no relevance to your question. By not changing the 
subject line, you have also not indicated anything about the actual 
subject of your inquiry.


> > Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
> > yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.
>
>I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
>the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
>FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
>addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?

It is linked in the footer at the bottom of every single e-mail 
posted to this list. There is also a link there to a searchable 
version of the list archives.

Look at the end of this post and you will find those links. There may 
even be an answer to your question in the FAQ or archives.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 18:33:56 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:33:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c1235722a6b0@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:17 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>>  First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
>>  line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
>>  with a new subject.
>
>  Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
>  did, and it wasn't my intention.

When you "reply" to a previous message, this is what happens.

If you have a new topic, please don't "reply" to a previous message 
and then continue on discussing whatever unrelated questions you may 
have.

>>  Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
>>  yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.
>
>  I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
>  the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
>  FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
>  addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?

The Mailman "docs" page at <http://www.list.org/docs.html> actually 
links to two different FAQs.  One is the old developer-maintained 
page at <http://www.list.org/faq.html>, and one links to the newer 
community-driven Mailman FAQ Wizard at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.

In addition, if you look at the footer of every single post to this 
list, you will see the following information:

  ------------------------------------------------------
  Mailman-Users mailing list
  Mailman-Users at python.org
  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
  Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
  Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/

  Security Policy:
  http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 18:55:45 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 11:55:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 11:17 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >>  First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject
> >>  line the same.  If you have a new topic, please create a new message
> >>  with a new subject.
> >
> >  Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread.  I don't see how it
> >  did, and it wasn't my intention.
>
> When you "reply" to a previous message, this is what happens.
>
> If you have a new topic, please don't "reply" to a previous message
> and then continue on discussing whatever unrelated questions you may
> have.

I suppose that could be what happened.  Look, I've been participating
on Arpanet and Internet email lists since 1981, but every now and then
the fingers don't quite do it right, and we're all just going to have
to live with that; the perfect error-free human being has not yet been
invented.

> >>  Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not
> >>  yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22.
> >
> >  I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this.  However, the copy of
> >  the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation,
> >  FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think
> >  addresses it.  Where is this FAQ 1.22?
>
> The Mailman "docs" page at <http://www.list.org/docs.html> actually
> links to two different FAQs.  One is the old developer-maintained
> page at <http://www.list.org/faq.html>, and one links to the newer
> community-driven Mailman FAQ Wizard at
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.

Ah, they have different content.   Okay.  And I've now checked through
the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant.

> In addition, if you look at the footer of every single post to this
> list, you will see the following information:

Oops, my fault again; gmail was hiding it.  I'm not used to these
stupid MUAs that muck about so much with the messages.

So, now I've checked both FAQs (I had already checked the official FAQ
before my first post, which I thought was fairly obvious from what I
wrote) and there's nothing relevant to this that I can find.

I hope you've had a good time picking on the minor mistake I made
(where my message ended up attached to  an existing thread), but could
you perhaps take a second or two to consider *my actual question*?
Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
password for my site?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 19:14:55 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:14:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240506c1235f5e94ab@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:55 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  I suppose that could be what happened.  Look, I've been participating
>  on Arpanet and Internet email lists since 1981, but every now and then
>  the fingers don't quite do it right, and we're all just going to have
>  to live with that; the perfect error-free human being has not yet been
>  invented.

True enough.  However, when a mistake like this occurs, you should 
likewise be prepared for a reminder such as the one I gave you.

You and I both have been around long enough to teach others about 
netiquette for over twenty years, and when we recognize that we've 
accidentally done something then it shouldn't be a surprise when 
others tell us about netiquette.

>  Ah, they have different content.

Yup.  They're different.

>                                     Okay.  And I've now checked through
>  the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant.

Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?

What did you search for?  Maybe we need to update the subject lines 
or the content of the FAQ Wizard.

>  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
>  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
>  password for my site?

I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not 
answered in the FAQs.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep  5 19:25:37 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:25:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905100957.03691e90@crimson-dragon.com>

David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 09:55 9/5/2006:

>Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
>behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
>password for my site?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

It is very simple. It is because these browsers that do this sort of 
thing are looking for an HTML input field named "password" (and maybe 
a few other similar names). If they do not find one with the name 
they expect, they do not save the password.

The field on the login page is named "adminpw" and is thus not 
recognized. What these browsers SHOULD be looking for is the TYPE of 
the input and not the name. But then again, I think this feature of 
some browsers is a security breach waiting to happen.

If you look at the source for the login page you will see something like this:

<INPUT TYPE="password" NAME="adminpw" SIZE="30">

You could modify your copy of mailman to change the name of that 
field if you wanted, I am not sure exactly how much of a change it 
would be and exactly which files are involved but I can't imagine it 
would take more than a handful of lines. However, I personally see 
nothing wrong with the way it is done now, in fact, I think it is a 
good practice. The reason I say this is that I believe saving 
passwords on your computer is generally a bad idea as it is a risky 
practice. All computers connected to the Internet and not physically 
secured from unauthorized access are vulnerable to attack.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 20:14:29 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:14:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 11:55 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>
> >                                     Okay.  And I've now checked through
> >  the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant.
>
> Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?

No; I searched for "password" and "firefox", I believe.  Obviously
there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about
saving them.

> What did you search for?  Maybe we need to update the subject lines
> or the content of the FAQ Wizard.

I'd suggest making sure "password" is in the index for that FAQ, yes.
If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has
anything to do with the issue I'm raising.

I don't see where "saving my changes" would come in; definitely not
something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't
recognizing a password field.

> >  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
> >  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
> >  password for my site?
>
> I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not
> answered in the FAQs.

I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.

4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
first place.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 20:29:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:29:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240509c1236fda71d4@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:14 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>>  Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?
>
>  No; I searched for "password" and "firefox", I believe.  Obviously
>  there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about
>  saving them.

Correct, there are a number of entries that mention "password", which 
is why this isn't the best search term.  Nevertheless, I have gone 
ahead and modified the subject lines of the two most relevant FAQ 
entries to also include the term "password".

>>  What did you search for?  Maybe we need to update the subject lines
>>  or the content of the FAQ Wizard.
>
>  I'd suggest making sure "password" is in the index for that FAQ, yes.

It already is.  Indeed, the problem is that searching for the term 
"password" comes up with too many entries, most of which may not be 
relevant to your particular problem.  However, there are now two more 
entries which also mention the term "password" in their subject lines.

>  If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has
>  anything to do with the issue I'm raising.

You apparently did not take the hint that I gave you previously.  You 
really should search for the term "reauthentication", which will come 
back with one and only one FAQ entry, which I believe is relevant to 
your query.  You should also search for the phrase "saving my 
changes", which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry (which 
is different from the other one), which might also be relevant.

>  I don't see where "saving my changes" would come in; definitely not
>  something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't
>  recognizing a password field.

Try reading the two FAQ entries in question.  If you can come up with 
some suggested improvements to the wording, please go ahead and do 
so.  After all, this is a community supported document, and all the 
information you need for making changes to any of the FAQ entries is 
already present on the page.

>>  >  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
>>  >  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
>>  >  password for my site?
>>
>>  I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not
>>  answered in the FAQs.
>
>  I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.

That's possible.  If this really is a browser-specific issue with 
Firefox, then it would be the very first time I've ever heard of this 
kind of thing, and I frequently use Firefox myself.

>  4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
>  whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
>  first place.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you should at least look at the other FAQ entry as well.

If I am wrong, then this is the very first time I've ever heard of 
such problems with Firefox, and will require a new FAQ entry.

While this wouldn't be the first application-specific FAQ entry, it 
would be the first one that is specific to Firefox, and I believe it 
would also be the first one that is specific to a particular web 
browser -- all other application-specific FAQ entries I know of have 
to do with other types of programs, and web browsers appear to have 
acted more or less the same with regards to these kinds of things.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 20:42:29 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:42:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was Re: Hijacking
	threads and netiquette)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905100957.03691e90@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060905100957.03691e90@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051142r83fc8d3q2f3e130215418e6d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 09:55 9/5/2006:
>
> >Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
> >behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
> >password for my site?
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
> It is very simple. It is because these browsers that do this sort of
> thing are looking for an HTML input field named "password" (and maybe
> a few other similar names). If they do not find one with the name
> they expect, they do not save the password.
>
> The field on the login page is named "adminpw" and is thus not
> recognized. What these browsers SHOULD be looking for is the TYPE of
> the input and not the name. But then again, I think this feature of
> some browsers is a security breach waiting to happen.

Mostly the browsers are looking for username / password pairs, and
need to capture both; and there's no unique input field type for the
username part; so I see how they've ended up where they are, though it
does seem to make sense  for them to capture bare passwords as well
based on input field type.

> If you look at the source for the login page you will see something like this:
>
> <INPUT TYPE="password" NAME="adminpw" SIZE="30">
>
> You could modify your copy of mailman to change the name of that
> field if you wanted, I am not sure exactly how much of a change it
> would be and exactly which files are involved but I can't imagine it
> would take more than a handful of lines.

Unfortunately I don't control the copy I have to interact with.

> However, I personally see
> nothing wrong with the way it is done now, in fact, I think it is a
> good practice. The reason I say this is that I believe saving
> passwords on your computer is generally a bad idea as it is a risky
> practice. All computers connected to the Internet and not physically
> secured from unauthorized access are vulnerable to attack.

And the passwords saved in my browser are encrypted under a master
passphrase.  The other reasonable choice I have for saving passwords
is Passwordsafe, where -- they're encrypted under a master passphrase.

I currently have 266 password (nearly all 8-12 character random
strings) in my Passwordsafe database.   I have about 10 passwords I
carry in my memory, including the passphrases mentioned above plus a
couple of key work- and server-related passwords.  For me, keeping
them all in my memory is not an option.  (And the number is much
smaller than it might be; for example at a number of retailers where I
have the option I don't establish an account or store any data there,
and hence don't have a password to remember.)

Certainly there's some risk to ever writing them down or putting them
on a computer; but I believe storing them the way they do is a
reasonable balance between risk from the password being compromised,
and risk from forgetting it when I need it.  Security is all about
tradeoffs; my computer would be more secure powered down, disconnected
from the net, and locked in a vault, but it would also be far less
useful.

And of course giving the adminpw form field the name "password" would
not force anybody to keep the passwords in their browser; that
functionality can be disabled, and if enabled it still asks before
remembering a password, so it's hard to do accidentally.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 20:47:14 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:47:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.
> 
> 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
> whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
> first place.

I've tested this on systems running both 2.1.5 and 2.1.8 and it works
fine for me with Firefox 1.5.0.6.  The admin login html hasn't changed
for any of those releases.  I don't see how this would be a mailman
issue.  Even if firefox failed to save the password for me as well,
I'd see that as a firefox problem.  The html that mailman uses for
that form is pretty basic, so firefox would have to be pretty broken
if it couldn't handle it.

Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine
entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox
config/system setup?

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Vote early and vote often.
    -- Al Capone (1899-1947)

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From jimpop at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 21:00:44 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 15:00:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette
In-Reply-To: <20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <44FDC95C.6070906@yahoo.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine
> entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox
> config/system setup?

Alternatively make sure that your Mailman domain isn't listed in
~/.mozilla/..../signons.txt.  If it is in the upper section then you
have previously told FireFox not to save the pw for that domain.

hth,

- -Jim P.  (/me thinks someone should replace the FAQ wizard with a
wiki... just because it confuses less ;-))



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From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 21:23:09 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette
In-Reply-To: <44FDC95C.6070906@yahoo.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<44FDC95C.6070906@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050cc1237e49d3c7@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:00 PM -0400 2006-09-05, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>  - -Jim P.  (/me thinks someone should replace the FAQ wizard with a
>  wiki... just because it confuses less ;-))

The wiki already exists -- see <http://wiki.list.org/>.

However, someone will have to copy all that content over to the wiki, 
edit and re-arrange the material as appropriate, etc....  That is not 
a small undertaking.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 21:23:42 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 1:14 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >>  Did you search for "reauthentication"?  Or "saving my changes"?
> >
> >  No; I searched for "password" and "firefox", I believe.  Obviously
> >  there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about
> >  saving them.
>
> Correct, there are a number of entries that mention "password", which
> is why this isn't the best search term.  Nevertheless, I have gone
> ahead and modified the subject lines of the two most relevant FAQ
> entries to also include the term "password".

While I agree it's not a wonderful search term by virtue of being
relevant to a lot of different FAQs, it's the one people will be
looking for in this case; the problem is that their browser doesn't
offer to remember their password.

> >  If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has
> >  anything to do with the issue I'm raising.
>
> You apparently did not take the hint that I gave you previously.  You
> really should search for the term "reauthentication", which will come
> back with one and only one FAQ entry, which I believe is relevant to
> your query.  You should also search for the phrase "saving my
> changes", which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry (which
> is different from the other one), which might also be relevant.

Could you *please* drop your condescending tone about 10 decibels?  I
*did* search for "reauthentication", it's how I got to FAQ 4.65, which
I mention below.

***THAT IS NOT RELEVANT TO MY PROBLEM.***

I have said this before, several times.  I'm getting tired of not
being listened to.

Also FAW 4.45 is not relevant to my problem.  They're about a
different set of symptoms entirely.

My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
(specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against
Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field
on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and
hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much
harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be.

> >  I don't see where "saving my changes" would come in; definitely not
> >  something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't
> >  recognizing a password field.
>
> Try reading the two FAQ entries in question.  If you can come up with
> some suggested improvements to the wording, please go ahead and do
> so.  After all, this is a community supported document, and all the
> information you need for making changes to any of the FAQ entries is
> already present on the page.

I HAVE read the FAQ entries in question.  I don't want to change those
two, becaues they're not relevant to this issue (and presumably *are*
relevant to the issues they are addressing, so I shouldn't hijack
them).

> >>  >  Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same
> >>  >  behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative
> >>  >  password for my site?
> >>
> >>  I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not
> >>  answered in the FAQs.
> >
> >  I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.
>
> That's possible.  If this really is a browser-specific issue with
> Firefox, then it would be the very first time I've ever heard of this
> kind of thing, and I frequently use Firefox myself.

It's probably not specific to Firefox.  I reported it against Firefox
because that's where I've actually seen it happen.  I seem to remember
seeing it in Opera as well.  And as I mentioned above, another user
has reported it in Safari.

> >  4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
> >  whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
> >  first place.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but you should at least look at the other FAQ entry as well.
>
> If I am wrong, then this is the very first time I've ever heard of
> such problems with Firefox, and will require a new FAQ entry.
>
> While this wouldn't be the first application-specific FAQ entry, it
> would be the first one that is specific to Firefox, and I believe it
> would also be the first one that is specific to a particular web
> browser -- all other application-specific FAQ entries I know of have
> to do with other types of programs, and web browsers appear to have
> acted more or less the same with regards to these kinds of things.

I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't
actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from
going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved
and then included):

Summary: Some browsers do not recognize the password on the list
administrator authentication page

Firefox and Safari, and quite possibly other browsers, do not
recognize the password entry field on the administrator list
authentication web page as a password field, and hence do not offer to
remember it for you.

The password field is named "adminpw" in the form rather than
"password", and the browsers may also be set up to look for a pair of
"username" and "password" rather than a bare password field.

No workaround is known for this problem.  At least one of Mailman and
the browsers will have to change for this behavior to change.

You should of course be very careful how and where you store your
passwords; if you store them on a computer connected to the net (in
the browser or otherwise) you should *at least* make sure they're well
encrypted (using, in Firefox, the "master password" feature).

Feature request 966157  (from 2004) was filed to get this fixed, but
as of 2006-09-05 nothing appears to have been done about it yet.

---------------

I'm sure it could be refined and improved, but there's a starting point.

> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

I'm reading Franklin's autobiography right now (thanks Gutenberg!),
and right about that date, though he doesn't choose to repeat that
phrase in the autobio.  It's one of my favorites, though.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 21:58:39 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:58:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> > I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ.
> >
> > 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues,
> > whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the
> > first place.
>
> I've tested this on systems running both 2.1.5 and 2.1.8 and it works
> fine for me with Firefox 1.5.0.6.  The admin login html hasn't changed
> for any of those releases.  I don't see how this would be a mailman
> issue.  Even if firefox failed to save the password for me as well,
> I'd see that as a firefox problem.  The html that mailman uses for
> that form is pretty basic, so firefox would have to be pretty broken
> if it couldn't handle it.

Same Firefox version I have.  Mailman 2.1.6, though (Dreamhost.com's
installation, not under my control).   I had the same thing happening
on my previous Mailman installation, though, which was whatever debian
sarge is at -- seems to be 2.1.5.  I have the same thing happen on the
Dreamhost installation using Opera 9 (build 8501).

> Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine
> entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox
> config/system setup?

If firefox has profiles, they're not in the menu and not in the help
(under that name).  But I tried Opera as well, and I've seen this over
the last two years with various browser installations.

Try <http://lists.dragaera.info/admin.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info>, put
in an invalid password (unless you get *really* lucky guessing), and I
don't expect your browser will offer it back to you when you come to
try again; it doesn't for me.

I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the
password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords.
What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page.  Same
net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but
different path to get there.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From raquel at thericehouse.net  Tue Sep  5 21:53:00 2006
From: raquel at thericehouse.net (Raquel)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:53:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500
"David Dyer-Bennet" <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:

> My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
> (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported
> against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the
> password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a
> password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and
> hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list
> administration than it needs to be.

What I cannot understand, since this is a browser issue, is that it
becomes a Mailman problem.  Should Mailman, and every web site on
the Internet, change their programming?  Should the browser
programmers change their programming?  I suppose the answer to those
questions depend on who is asked.

-- 
Raquel
============================================================
This above all: to thine own self be true; And it must follow, as
the night the day; Thou canst not then be false to any man.
  --William Shakespeare



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 22:22:28 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:22:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Raquel <raquel at thericehouse.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500
> "David Dyer-Bennet" <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
>
> > My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
> > (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported
> > against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the
> > password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a
> > password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and
> > hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list
> > administration than it needs to be.
>
> What I cannot understand, since this is a browser issue, is that it
> becomes a Mailman problem.  Should Mailman, and every web site on
> the Internet, change their programming?  Should the browser
> programmers change their programming?  I suppose the answer to those
> questions depend on who is asked.

It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman.  It could
almost certainly be fixed by either side.  If you want to start a
finger-pointing contest and say "not my problem" that's your privilege
of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other side.

The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge
array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to
sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and thousands
of sites.

Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman.

You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the
browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this
(while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they already
work with).

If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional
reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so
right that it's more important than whether it works with existing
browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser
community they will all rush to fix the browsers.   That's entirely
possible.

So, make the argument.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 22:25:59 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:25:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:
> If firefox has profiles, they're not in the menu and not in the help
> (under that name).

I don't know the various ways to change the profiles in firefox, but
running the command line firefox -ProfileManager will open up the
profile manager.  The -P option will use the profile you specify.

But I think this is irrelavant after reading your text below...

> Try <http://lists.dragaera.info/admin.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info>,
> put in an invalid password (unless you get *really* lucky guessing),
> and I don't expect your browser will offer it back to you when you
> come to try again; it doesn't for me.

Yeah, I didn't get luck on my first and only try.  Firefox did offer
to save the password, but it did not fill it in automatically for me
on return.  I am fairly sure that it used to, though I'm not positive
and I don't know whrn this might have changed.  It hasn't changed on
the mailman side very recently.

> I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize
> the password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved
> passwords.  What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to
> the page.  Same net result, I have to look it up and put it in each
> time, but different path to get there.

This is definitely a firefox bug, AFAIAK.  If Firefox is smart enough
to offer to save the password, then it needs to be smart enough to
fill it back in on return to the same page.  Unless someone in the
firefox camp can show that the spartan HTML generated on the mailman
admin logon page is just plain wrong, I can't see how changing it is a
problem that mailman should deal with.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief
in freedom itself.
    -- Milton Friedman

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From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 22:27:00 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:27:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:23 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  While I agree it's not a wonderful search term by virtue of being
>  relevant to a lot of different FAQs, it's the one people will be
>  looking for in this case; the problem is that their browser doesn't
>  offer to remember their password.

Unfortunately, with 25 different entries being returned matching the 
term "password", I fear that it is going to be difficult for most 
people to figure out which ones are or are not related to their 
particular question.  That's part of why I made a point of using the 
term "reauthentication" on one particular entry, and I've tried to 
describe the problems using as much of the same terminology as the 
person who initially brought the subject to my attention.

>                                                                      I
>  *did* search for "reauthentication", it's how I got to FAQ 4.65, which
>  I mention below.

I saw that later, but there was no clear indication that you had read 
both entries, and at that point I still had not received enough 
information from you to convince me that neither of these were 
actually related to the problem you were having.

>  My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers
>  (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against
>  Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field
>  on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and
>  hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much
>  harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be.

Which sounds to me pretty much exactly like the problems described in 
FAQ 4.64 and 4.45, namely that your password is not being saved and 
you keep being asked to re-enter it.  The precise mechanism of the 
failure may be different, but the high-level description is 
essentially the same.  We need some way to differentiate between the 
underlying problems, and it's still not clear to me what the real 
underlying problem is or how it should be fixed -- or even if we 
should try to fix it within the Mailman code.

>  I HAVE read the FAQ entries in question.  I don't want to change those
>  two, becaues they're not relevant to this issue (and presumably *are*
>  relevant to the issues they are addressing, so I shouldn't hijack
>  them).

Fair enough.  Then a new FAQ entry would be appropriate.

>  I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't
>  actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from
>  going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved
>  and then included):

Look closely.  All the information you need is actually right there. 
You're asked for your full name, your e-mail address, and the 
password.  The password is actually given to you in multiple places, 
and is pretty obvious -- although I'm not going to explicitly mention 
it in this public forum.

With those three pieces of information, anyone can create a new FAQ 
entry or edit an existing one.  In fact, that's how I got involved in 
the Mailman project several years ago -- I installed Mailman at my 
site, I started seeing lots of common questions coming up on the 
list, and I started combing through all the FAQ entries.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 22:31:36 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:31:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c1238e298c43@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:58 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Same Firefox version I have.  Mailman 2.1.6, though (Dreamhost.com's
>  installation, not under my control).

Ahh.  In which case, you should also see FAQ 1.32, and be aware that 
Dreamhost.com may well have made some localized modifications -- 
perhaps not as bad as cPanel, Plesk, or Apple, but still non-standard 
nonetheless.

>                                         I had the same thing happening
>  on my previous Mailman installation, though, which was whatever debian
>  sarge is at -- seems to be 2.1.5.

Whose package were you using?  Do you know if they made any modifications?

>  I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the
>  password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords.
>  What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page.  Same
>  net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but
>  different path to get there.

I don't understand why Firefox, Opera, and all the other browsers you 
have used have acted in the same way, and why others don't seem to be 
having the same problems when using the same browsers.

But given this additional information, this most definitely seems to 
be a pure browser issue to me, and not a problem with Mailman.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 22:34:36 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:34:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman.  It could
> almost certainly be fixed by either side.  If you want to start a
> finger-pointing contest and say "not my problem" that's your
> privilege of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other
> side.
> 
> The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge
> array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to
> sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and
> thousands of sites.
> 
> Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman.
> 
> You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the
> browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this
> (while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they
> already work with).
> 
> If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional
> reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so
> right that it's more important than whether it works with existing
> browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser
> community they will all rush to fix the browsers.   That's entirely
> possible.
> 
> So, make the argument.

Perhaps you should first show how mailman is broken here.  If you're
claim is that all sites which have a password entry form need to use
both a username and password or that the password field needs to be
named password, then I'm just going to chuckle.

If there is something actually broken about the way that mailman's
admin page presents itself and makes it impossible for a sane browser
to save the password, then point it out explicitly.  References to any
related RFC or other standard specification would be a big plus.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
I've had a perfectly wonderful evening.  But this wasn't it.
    -- Groucho Marx

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From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep  5 22:51:00 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:51:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
 Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<34a783b20609050830w2c8725d0ue8b839c1a59867b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905131023.0375a5b0@crimson-dragon.com>

David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 12:58 9/5/2006:

>I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the
>password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords.
>What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page.  Same
>net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but
>different path to get there.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Mailman is not broken just because it does not work the way you want 
it to with the browser you have chosen to use. If you can show how 
the implementation mailman uses is fundamentally wrong with a 
reference to an applicable RFC, I think then it would be appropriate 
for the mailman developers to address the issue. Until then, this is 
a problem with your browser and the browser developer is the 
appropriate organization to deal with the problem. Even if you did 
come up with such a reference and mailman is fundamentally broken, 
there are other issues that are likely to take priority over what is 
really just a minor annoyance.

This list, being a support list for mailman, is thus not the 
appropriate place to address this issue. Filing a bug report or 
feature request with the developers of Firefox (or any other 
similarly affected browser) is the right course of action.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 22:56:39 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:56:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:

> This is definitely a firefox bug, AFAIAK.  If Firefox is smart enough
> to offer to save the password, then it needs to be smart enough to
> fill it back in on return to the same page.  Unless someone in the
> firefox camp can show that the spartan HTML generated on the mailman
> admin logon page is just plain wrong, I can't see how changing it is a
> problem that mailman should deal with.

And it's apparently fixed in 2.0
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=235336>.

Thanks to everybody for their assistance working out what was going on
here.  I apologize for the heat I contributed to the discussion (while
pleading in extenuation that I was provoked).
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 23:03:28 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:03:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> > It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman.  It could
> > almost certainly be fixed by either side.  If you want to start a
> > finger-pointing contest and say "not my problem" that's your
> > privilege of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other
> > side.
> >
> > The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge
> > array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to
> > sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and
> > thousands of sites.
> >
> > Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman.
> >
> > You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the
> > browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this
> > (while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they
> > already work with).
> >
> > If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional
> > reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so
> > right that it's more important than whether it works with existing
> > browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser
> > community they will all rush to fix the browsers.   That's entirely
> > possible.
> >
> > So, make the argument.
>
> Perhaps you should first show how mailman is broken here.  If you're
> claim is that all sites which have a password entry form need to use
> both a username and password or that the password field needs to be
> named password, then I'm just going to chuckle.
>
> If there is something actually broken about the way that mailman's
> admin page presents itself and makes it impossible for a sane browser
> to save the password, then point it out explicitly.  References to any
> related RFC or other standard specification would be a big plus.

If you want to take a rules-lawyer approach and use it to resist any
suggestion of change, be my guest.  So far as I know, what's at issue
here is the question of interoperability in an area where there are no
formal standards in play.  So, from a rules-lawyer point of view,
clearly nobody is at fault.

>From a real-world point of view, there's still a problem.

Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering
it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic
problem is really in Firefox.  Apparently so do they, and they've
fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  5 23:17:48 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:17:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@10.0.1.210>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051417s40d1d6a3td8a0cbf463767b57@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> >  I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't
> >  actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from
> >  going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved
> >  and then included):
>
> Look closely.  All the information you need is actually right there.
> You're asked for your full name, your e-mail address, and the
> password.  The password is actually given to you in multiple places,
> and is pretty obvious -- although I'm not going to explicitly mention
> it in this public forum.

Now *that* really pissed me off.  The page linked from the "help"
button on the FAQ edit page says "What is the password? The webmaster
will tell you the password if you ask nicely."  I really don't much
like scavenger-hunt-as-security-metaphor, but maybe that help should
be updated somehow to suggest the real situation more accurately.

I'll be updating the new FAQ with one more point, the Firefox bug
number (closed for 2.0) referring to this problem, and posting it
shortly.  Unless yet *another* booby-trap trips me up yet *again*.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com  Tue Sep  5 23:20:51 2006
From: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com (Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:20:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Subject Line on Invite Messages
Message-ID: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB022CDF@farquaad.us.omicron.at>

Hi, Does the VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes only works on certain version of
Mailman? We have Mailman version 2.1.1-5, Python 3.0.4-0.1, and Qmail
(1.03-rhel3) and have set the setting as suggested; but we are still getting
the generic subject line for list subscription confirmation email.
Thanks, 
Jimmy Do 
OMICRON Lab 
12 Greenway Plaza, suite 1510 
Houston, TX 77046 
713-830-4660 x108 
http://www.omicron-lab.com 
============================================================================
=========== 
At 20:38 -0700 7/22/04, Mark Sapiro wrote: 
>Toby Reiter wrote: 
> 
>>This has been asked here before, but is there any way to modify the 
>>Subject of the invite message? "confirm 
>>aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c" is a DEAD WRINGER for spam, 
>>and is likely to be deleted by many of our users. I don't want to be 
>>a bad net citizen and automatically subscribe users to this list, but 
>>the majority of the people who receive the invitation will want to 
>>join (it's for health services trainings through a non-profit they've 
>>already done trainings with, working with the CDC, etc.). But I fear 
>>many will miss out on this invitation for a list they really want to 
>>be on, thinking the message is spam. If the message had a welcome 
>>text, like "An Invitation to Join the Foo List" I think people would 
>>probably read it. 
> 
>set 
>VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes 
>in mm_cfg.py. 




From tmz at pobox.com  Tue Sep  5 23:22:39 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:22:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e:
	Obscure addresses problem)
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060905212239.GM30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> If you want to take a rules-lawyer approach and use it to resist any
> suggestion of change, be my guest.  So far as I know, what's at
> issue here is the question of interoperability in an area where
> there are no formal standards in play.  So, from a rules-lawyer
> point of view, clearly nobody is at fault.

No, firefox is at fault.  They save the password as feature and then
fail to re-use it when it would be useful.  Mailman has no part in
this at all and asking anyone that develops a web site to change their
code to suit the arbitrary scheme a browser uses to save passwords is
pointless.  If there were some sort of RFC that outlined how such a
process should work, then it'd be fairly simple to change the mailman
html output to meet it.  Without that, whose arbitrary scheme would
mailman use?  Making one work may break another and lead to more user
coming here asking why their favorite broswer's unique scheme for
recognizing a pasword to save didn't work.

> From a real-world point of view, there's still a problem.

Yep.  A firefox problem.

> Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering
> it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic
> problem is really in Firefox.  Apparently so do they, and they've
> fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message.

Glad to hear it.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is
striking at the root.
    -- Henry David Thoreau

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 23:12:24 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:12:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905125300.138e9d02.raquel@thericehouse.net>
	<34a783b20609051322l15502358w23e38ce40ff432f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905203436.GL30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051403x194735f4x37b3f3f9eba1c87b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240502c123970fa204@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:03 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering
>  it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic
>  problem is really in Firefox.  Apparently so do they, and they've
>  fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message.

That still leaves us with the problem of what was causing the same 
apparent behaviour with Opera, Safari, and the other browsers you 
mentioned.


If I had to guess, I would say that it's probably a result of people 
using essentially the same terms to describe various problems with 
very different root causes, some of which may already have been 
addressed in more recent versions of our code, some of which may have 
already been discussed in the FAQ, some of which may not be our 
fault, and there is still the slight possibility that there may be 
something we could or should do to try to help make this issue more 
clear.

I think the biggest problem is going to be trying to figure out which is which.


There are now twenty-six different FAQ entries that use the term 
"password", and I've gone in and edited 4.45, 4.65, and 4.71 to all 
cross-link to each other because they all seem to be related to the 
same type of problem, albeit with various different root causes.

This is not a good situation.  We need to clear this up so that we 
don't have these kinds of problems again in the future.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 23:28:46 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:28:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c12399833555@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:56 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Thanks to everybody for their assistance working out what was going on
>  here.  I apologize for the heat I contributed to the discussion (while
>  pleading in extenuation that I was provoked).

There was certainly a communications breakdown, yes.  And we did 
start off by going down a rathole as a result of an accident, 
although we did wind up taking this thread back onto your topic which 
was intended to be original.

However, while you may have felt like you were being provoked, you 
should know that I certainly did not intend to provoke you, and I 
don't believe that anyone else did, either.  I believe it was an 
honest miscommunication, which was piled on top of some unfortunate 
previous problems, and that set us up into a pattern which became 
mutually non-productive.


I will apologize for anything I may have said which came across as 
being provocational in nature, and assume that you (and others) would 
do the same.


There may still be some minor technical issues that can/should 
continue to be discussed, and if so then I hope we will be able to do 
that without getting back into this pattern.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ken at sunward.org  Tue Sep  5 23:41:18 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:41:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
Message-ID: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>

The config_list utility doesn't include the "public HTML pages" (most
importantly for me, the "General List Information

Page") as part of the configuration that it copies from one list to another.
Since I have drastically customized my List Info Page, this rather impedes
cloning my lists.

 

So, three questions:

 

1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?

2. If not, is there some other utility that does it?

3. If not, is there some easier way to do it than opening the "source" and
"target" lists in the administrator web sites and cutting-and-pasting the
HTML from one to the other?

 

~ TIA

~ Ken

 



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Sep  6 00:01:39 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:01:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking
	threads and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c12399833555@10.0.1.210>
References: <20060905125617.25041.qmail@web82403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905184714.GG30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051258u30b06a51pdefff9eb4e5e4b08@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060905202559.GJ30075@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<34a783b20609051356v254389beodc465ebee3cace49@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c12399833555@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609051501oafec2d7p2a0cb47d6f8988d6@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 3:56 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >  Thanks to everybody for their assistance working out what was going on
> >  here.  I apologize for the heat I contributed to the discussion (while
> >  pleading in extenuation that I was provoked).
>
> There was certainly a communications breakdown, yes.  And we did
> start off by going down a rathole as a result of an accident,
> although we did wind up taking this thread back onto your topic which
> was intended to be original.

And we got back on track partly because we both were stubborn, rather
than giving up or degenerating into a flamewar.  I have seen worse
outcomes, even if this wasn't perfectly optimum.

> However, while you may have felt like you were being provoked, you
> should know that I certainly did not intend to provoke you, and I
> don't believe that anyone else did, either.  I believe it was an
> honest miscommunication, which was piled on top of some unfortunate
> previous problems, and that set us up into a pattern which became
> mutually non-productive.

Sometimes tone doesn't come across to the reader as it was intended by
the writer, even when they're from the same culture and both
(seemingly) pretty decent writers and readers.   I'm not interested in
accusing you of doing anything counter-productive deliberately.  If I
wasn't reading it the way you were trying to write it, I'll happily
chalk it up to "one of those things" that we both contributed to, and
move on.

The important thing is that the original Firefox issue was brought to
a useful conclusion, and that it was done without (I hope) excessive
cost in wasted time or ongoing hostilities.

> I will apologize for anything I may have said which came across as
> being provocational in nature, and assume that you (and others) would
> do the same.

I feel no need to go into detail on what I saw that way along the way;
and hope you feel the same about my own posts in this discussion.  And
I accept and thank you for the general apology.  (My apology is in the
previous message, the one you are responding to, so please nobody
think I'm accepting apologies without offering my own!)

> There may still be some minor technical issues that can/should
> continue to be discussed, and if so then I hope we will be able to do
> that without getting back into this pattern.

That would very much be my preference.

I've posted the FAQ entry, and updated the Mailman feature request
with the information on the Firefox bug entry.  I suppose it would be
useful to test a few more browsers carefully to see which ones do what
here.  I also haven't tried the 2.0 beta, to see if the fix really
does fix this.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep  6 00:02:10 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:02:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages
In-Reply-To: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB022CDF@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
References: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB022CDF@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
Message-ID: <p06240505c123a3cc9e51@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:20 PM -0500 2006-09-05, <Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com> wrote:

>  Hi, Does the VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes only works on certain version of
>  Mailman? We have Mailman version 2.1.1-5, Python 3.0.4-0.1, and Qmail
>  (1.03-rhel3) and have set the setting as suggested; but we are still getting
>  the generic subject line for list subscription confirmation email.

Looking through the source, Mailman 2.1.5 mentions this option, but 
I've having trouble using Subversion to figure out precisely when 
this was introduced.  I know that the code around this option has 
changed more than once, but that's about all I can tell you right now.

I can tell you that the latest current version right now is version 
2.1.8, and 2.1.9 will be released very soon.  2.1.9rc1 is out now, 
and we're already running it on python.org.  There are some important 
security fixes coming with 2.1.9, so I highly recommend that you get 
this version for your site as soon as it is available.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep  5 23:32:55 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:32:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Firefox password issue (was: Re: Hijacking threads
 and netiquette ... )
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609051417s40d1d6a3td8a0cbf463767b57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240500c1230b363629@10.0.1.210>
	<p06240501c1234cbb3677@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050917j5404b664j4875539263690e10@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240503c1235722a6b0@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609050955v1940ef0eg76345c9dd7265933@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240506c1235f5e94ab@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051114y59e59fb1v30e88fded979d0cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240509c1236fda71d4@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051223t73e13798od1229c08c6a7ece0@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240500c1238b5ae3d3@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609051417s40d1d6a3td8a0cbf463767b57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240504c1239caff3a5@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:17 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  Now *that* really pissed me off.  The page linked from the "help"
>  button on the FAQ edit page says "What is the password? The webmaster
>  will tell you the password if you ask nicely."

Right.  In private e-mail, not on a public forum.

Moreover, the password is displayed at the bottom of every one of those pages.

>                                                  I really don't much
>  like scavenger-hunt-as-security-metaphor, but maybe that help should
>  be updated somehow to suggest the real situation more accurately.

Security through obscurity is not my favourite solution, either.  But 
this method has been enough to keep the worst of the spammers out so 
far, and with the wiki already being in place and working, I don't 
imagine that anyone is going to be going back to the old FAQ Wizard 
code and hacking that up to work in a different way.

However, that's a standard Python FAQ Wizard which is used by 
multiple other projects and not just Mailman, so maybe you could talk 
to the authors of that tool and suggest some alternatives.

>  I'll be updating the new FAQ with one more point, the Firefox bug
>  number (closed for 2.0) referring to this problem, and posting it
>  shortly.  Unless yet *another* booby-trap trips me up yet *again*.

I'll keep an eye out for it.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep  6 00:07:48 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:07:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:41 PM -0400 2006-09-05, Ken Winter wrote:

>  The config_list utility doesn't include the "public HTML pages" (most
>  importantly for me, the "General List Information Page") as part of the
>  configuration that it copies from one list to another.  Since I have
>  drastically customized my List Info Page, this rather impedes
>  cloning my lists.

So far as I know, the config_list tool only captures those items 
which are stored in the Python pickle which contains what Mailman 
thinks of as the list configuration items.  This specifically does 
not include any customized HTML templates, or any other modifications 
which are not reflected in the Python pickle.

>  1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?

Not that I know of, at least not without making source-code level 
changes to the tool.

>  2. If not, is there some other utility that does it?

Not that I know of.

>  3. If not, is there some easier way to do it than opening the "source" and
>  "target" lists in the administrator web sites and cutting-and-pasting the
>  HTML from one to the other?

If you have privileged command-line access to the server in question, 
then you should be able to copy over customized HTML templates.

Other than that, I don't have any answers for you.  Perhaps one of 
the core Mailman developers will see your question and be able to 
give you a better response.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Sep  6 00:37:03 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 15:37:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060905152124.03752900@crimson-dragon.com>

Brad Knowles sent the message below at 15:07 9/5/2006:
>At 5:41 PM -0400 2006-09-05, Ken Winter wrote:
>
> >  3. If not, is there some easier way to do it than opening the "source" and
> >  "target" lists in the administrator web sites and cutting-and-pasting the
> >  HTML from one to the other?
>
>If you have privileged command-line access to the server in question,
>then you should be able to copy over customized HTML templates.
>
>Other than that, I don't have any answers for you.  Perhaps one of
>the core Mailman developers will see your question and be able to
>give you a better response.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I found out almost by accident that if you have edited the list info 
page, it is stored in an HTML file called listinfo.html under the 
list directory in a directory named for the default list language (I 
believe...)

So on my system (using the default mailman install location) for one 
of my lists, this file exists on the following path:

         /usr/local/mailman/lists/listname/en

The other files you can edit via the web interface are stored in the 
same place.

Those files are:

         options.html
         subscribe.html
         subscribeack.txt

It appears that the default versions for these live in the templates 
directory for the list default language. On my system:

         /usr/local/mailman/templates/en

I do not know for certain how this works for lists with multiple 
languages enabled. However, I suspect that a similar method is used 
and there is a sub-directory with the appropriate ISO language code 
under the lists/listname directory.

I also do not know if it would work if you put custom versions of any 
other template files in that sub-directory. It would be a nice way to 
do list-specific versions of templates if that does work.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From liyasmm at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 02:06:32 2006
From: liyasmm at gmail.com (liyas_m m)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:06:32 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailing list does not work
Message-ID: <2452665f0609051706q6eaa1c92o92d24520a81f6ec4@mail.gmail.com>

I have around 50 mailing lists on the xserve (running mailman)..all
are working except one.
check_perms -f had been done

log files do not show anything sgnificant...no failures were shown,
but the list (non-working one) just does not relay email to its
members.
Any idea?


From doug at sbscomp.net  Wed Sep  6 07:05:02 2006
From: doug at sbscomp.net (Douglas G. Phillips)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:05:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman/Qmail/Plesk Problem
Message-ID: <20060906010502.eyux3ept1k4wsssw@sbscomp.net>

OK,

I've got another problem with Qmail/Plesk/Mailman (same customer,  
rebuilt server).  Plesk is 7.5.4 reloaded.

Mail delivered fails with "need GID 110 got 101" error.  I set up the  
brute-force wrapper to deliver with GID 110, and set the permissions  
correctly for it to work.  Now, I'm getting the following (broken up  
into multiple lines for courtesy):

qmail: 1157518628.995172 delivery 726: success:  
group_mismatch_error._Mailman_expected_the_mail_wrapper_script_to_be/
executed_as_one_of_the_following_groups:/[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/
but_the_system's_mail_server_executed_the_mail_script_as_group:_"popuser"./
Try_tweaking_the_mail_server_to_run_the_script_as_one_of_these_groups:/
[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/or_re-run_configure_providing_the_
command_line_option:/'--with-mail-gid=popuser'./Failed_to_start_
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/

I'm about ready to pull my hair out.  I even added the popuser user to  
the mailman group in /etc/passwd.

So, that being said, are there any ideas out there?  I have been  
messing with this for a week, and have not come up with anything else  
to do.

-- 
Douglas G. Phillips
Simple Business Solutions

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.




From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Sep  6 07:30:23 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 14:30:23 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > So far as I know, the config_list tool only captures those items 
 > which are stored in the Python pickle which contains what Mailman 
 > thinks of as the list configuration items.

Kinda miserly of it, isn't it?<wink>

 > >  1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?
 > 
 > Not that I know of, at least not without making source-code level 
 > changes to the tool.

This really ought to be fixed.  I don't know if the templates are even
stored in there (I thought they were on the file system somewhere) but
there are a number of other things that would be nice to have a better
interface than "bin/with_list" for, like recording/setting the list's
pipeline.  But config_list knows only about a subset of configuration
variables.

Maybe I can work on it later this week.

 > >  2. If not, is there some other utility that does it?
 > 
 > Not that I know of.

"bin/with_list" will allow you to get and set those attributes if you
know what the attribute is in the pickle.

Unfortunately my python is rusty or I'd give you a wrapper, but it
shouldn't be too hard to get bin/with_list to spit out the value you
want on stdout and pipe it to another instance of bin/with_list to
write to the target list.

Steve



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep  6 08:37:28 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:37:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p06240509c12419231ea1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:30 PM +0900 2006-09-06, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  > >  1. Is there some way to get config_list to do this?
>  >
>  > Not that I know of, at least not without making source-code level
>  > changes to the tool.
>
>  This really ought to be fixed.  I don't know if the templates are even
>  stored in there (I thought they were on the file system somewhere) but
>  there are a number of other things that would be nice to have a better
>  interface than "bin/with_list" for, like recording/setting the list's
>  pipeline.

The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different 
places depending on whether you're talking about the standard 
as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped 
language independent versions, the site-wide language independent 
versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific 
language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent 
versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations 
that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure 
that there are some others that I haven't thought of.

How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be 
considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a 
complex subject.  Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  If you 
do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on 
the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide 
location?  And what if there are conflicts?


This starts to get real messy, real quick.

>  But config_list knows only about a subset of configuration variables.

Right.  My understanding is that templates are not considered part of 
a list configuration, and config_list has always seemed to me to be 
kind of a quick-n-dirty tool, and never intended to be a 
be-all/do-all 1000000% perfect list duplication management system.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Sep  6 12:00:17 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:00:17 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c12419231ea1@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@[10.0.1.210]>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06240509c12419231ea1@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17662.39985.918819.849922@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 2:30 PM +0900 2006-09-06, <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
 > 
 > The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different 
 > places depending on [all kinds o' things].
 > 
 > How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be 
 > considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a 
 > complex subject.  Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  If you 
 > do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on 
 > the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide 
 > location?  And what if there are conflicts?
 > 
 > This starts to get real messy, real quick.

Yep.  That's why I mentioned "work on it" and "later".  However, I
have an itch.  A few thoughts in case anybody would like to comment
before I start scratching.

0. For most admins, Mailman is a small fraction of their job, and a
problem is just knowing where stuff is.  I don't even know which files
the lists configs are in unless I think about it; I just use
bin/with_list.  A tool should be optionally able to tell you where to
find stuff related to a list (sorta like pkg-config does), as well as
operating on it.

1. There should be a distinction between "factory defaults" and "site
wide" (a la Defaults and mm_cfg).  If there's a site-wide config !=
factory default, the tool should notify the user, and offer to copy it
(only to a different installation).  The admin should be given the
choice of a list-specific copy or a site-wide copy.

2. If there are conflicts, the admin gets a menu.  I really don't
think this need be that hard, there should be a short list of
available sources, and a short list (usually only one, ie, for stuff
stored in the config pickle) of targets.  In most cases the admin will
want the most specific, that's why he chose that list to clone.

 > Right.  My understanding is that templates are not considered part of 
 > a list configuration, and config_list has always seemed to me to be 
 > kind of a quick-n-dirty tool, and never intended to be a 
 > be-all/do-all 1000000% perfect list duplication management system.

Sure.  Maybe it's time (for me) to try to bump 50% to 80% or 90%
though.  Anyway, that's what I'm thinking. :-)

Cheers!

Steve



From suuuper at messinalug.org  Wed Sep  6 12:24:42 2006
From: suuuper at messinalug.org (Suuuper)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 12:24:42 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix and mailman content filter issue
Message-ID: <200609061224.45216.suuuper@messinalug.org>

Hi all,
I'm having troubles in making a content_filter for postfix for mail
archiving.
My filter works like this:

- Postfix passes the mail in pipe
- The mail is saved on a spool directory
- The script parses all parameters (sender and recipient)
- The mail is saved in a directory (e.g. /var/foo/user), and if it doesn't
exist, it creates it
- The mail is sent back to postfix via "sendmail" command

I call the filter in master.cf with the following line:

arch ? ?unix ? ?- ? ? ? n ? ? ? n ? ? ? - ? ? ? - ? ? ? pipe
? flags=Rq user=filter argv=/etc/postfix/filter/archivizione.pl -f
${sender} --
${recipient}

The problem is that this postfix also handles mailing lists specified in
/etc/aliases with the aid of mailman
e.g.:


test: ? ? ? ? ? ? ?"|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post test"
team: ? ? ? ? ? ? ?"|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post team"
hello: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post hello"


If an email is sent to a mailing list, the filter instead of archiving it
in each user's maildir, archives in a directory that calls
"listname at domain.it"

Any suggestions to solve this?

Thanks in advance


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From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Wed Sep  6 15:13:54 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:13:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] new list--sort of
Message-ID: <44FEC992.2030401@ncmail.net>

OK, here is an interesting one.  I recently moved all the lists and my 
perl admin interface (for other things, not mailman list admin) to a new 
server.  Both independantly seem to be running fine, but they seem to 
refuse to interface.  If I try and do a newlist from my program, I get 
the mail, but the list is not created.  I find this behavior especially 
puzzling.  My perl program can run /usr/local/mailman/bin/list_lists 
even though apache (who it runs as) can run it fine.  I just gets no 
response.

./check_perms -f
No problems found

I've checked and double checked my permissions, both with the mailman's 
check_perms and by looking.  It all looks right to me.  Does anyone have 
any idea what might be going on here. or anything else I should try?

btw, the perl program can successfully execute other shell commands.

Anne

From antennex at swbell.net  Wed Sep  6 15:45:29 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 06:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
Message-ID: <20060906134529.85234.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Folks:
  Being a nuB to Mailman (but old hand with majordomo), I have noted that if a message is being processed out to one of the large customer announcement lists (10,000+) that it seems the separate discussion lists' deliveries slow down substanially -- from minutes to hours! One member report 18 hours from post to receipt.
   
  I've read most of the "tuning" methods, but have not seen anything that might be best for this, except I *think* I have noticed a speedup if I don't use "personalized" stuff, like on the footers. I know it switches from processing individual messages to batches. Just wonder if that really is the main culprit.
   
  The "hours" mentioned above occurred when using personalized footers. The announcement lists still slow down things.
   
  I use sendmail on FBSD-6.x and latest Mailman 2.8x
   
  Just wondered what others have done with this type issue. I have read most of the "slow" message archives.
   
  PS: I have found that if I move a copy of any needed global "templates" to
  ../lists/somelist/en
  and that modified version will be used, which is great for customizing.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Sep  6 17:39:40 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 10:39:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c12419231ea1@10.0.1.210>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@10.0.1.210>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06240509c12419231ea1@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different
> places depending on whether you're talking about the standard
> as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped
> language independent versions, the site-wide language independent
> versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific
> language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent
> versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations
> that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure
> that there are some others that I haven't thought of.

I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
you tell me where they end up if they're created?  (I hadn't
customized my fake installation at the list level, so the directories
probably didn't exist in it, so I didn't find them, is my immediate
guess.   I'm currently doing my customizing at the top level.  Not
that it matters in a temporary installation used once to transform old
archive mbox files into the html archive pages; but it's *inelegant*
and I should fix it.

> How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be
> considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a
> complex subject.  Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  If you
> do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on
> the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide
> location?  And what if there are conflicts?

Yes, this is potentially a conflict.  Although if you're copying a
list within a site, the site-level stuff above it will remain the
same.

A scheme that copied the list-specific stuff across all langugages
when a list was copied would probably be very usable.

> This starts to get real messy, real quick.
>
> >  But config_list knows only about a subset of configuration variables.
>
> Right.  My understanding is that templates are not considered part of
> a list configuration, and config_list has always seemed to me to be
> kind of a quick-n-dirty tool, and never intended to be a
> be-all/do-all 1000000% perfect list duplication management system.

I see stuff about expanding (and making less weirdly inconsistent!)
the template scheme as future work items.   We should check and see if
that includes addressing the issue of copying a list in a more elegant
way.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From Jason.Cavener at rci.rogers.com  Wed Sep  6 19:08:03 2006
From: Jason.Cavener at rci.rogers.com (Jason Cavener)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 13:08:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Small list takes several days for emails to reach
	recipients
Message-ID: <985DD03487FF2B44B57F8CD050200A3801A785C8@rssesngtambb.rci.rogers.ca>

> Mailman ver : 2.1.7	
> Install method : CPANEL "create mailing list" (hosting service)
> Server OS : Linux Kernel version 2.6.17.6hg
> MTA : sendmail
> 
> With 10 members on a list that processes small text messages, it is
> taking many days for recipients to receive email.  Started happening a
> couple of months ago for reason unknown.  Sound familiar?
> Suggestions?  I am technically savvy but am new to Mailman.
> 
> Your help is appreciated and will go toward helping the management of
> the world's next greatest rock band with songs like "La Poutine" and
> "Hip-Hoperation".
> 
> 
> 
> Jason Cavener
> Sr. Consultant Online Learning
> Learning Technologies Team
> Sales and Service Training
> Rogers Communications Group
> ( 416) 935-2311
> PIN: 2039911E
> Cell: (416) 725-8576
> Email: jason.cavener at rci.rogers.com
> 


From ken at sunward.org  Wed Sep  6 19:43:56 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 13:43:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>

Thanks for the responses on copying customized HTML files.  

Dragon was right about the location of customized files:
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/.  Alas, I don't have the
permissions to write to those dirs, so it's back to cut-and-paste on the web
site.

Some other comments are inserted below.

~ Ken

    On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
    
    > The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different
    > places depending on whether you're talking about the standard
    > as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped
    > language independent versions, the site-wide language independent
    > versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific
    > language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent
    > versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations
    > that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure
    > that there are some others that I haven't thought of.
    
    I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
    you tell me where they end up if they're created?  

Mine (for an English language list) are in
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/en/<docname, e.g. listinfo.html>.  I
assume that if you have different languages you have to customize your HTML
pages separately for each language.
    
    > How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be
    > considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a
    > complex subject.  

If all of a list's customized HTML pages are under
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/, they are part of that
list's configuration, and should be copied to the corresponding dirs for the
target list's.

    > Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?  

I'm not sure where these live or how they get established.  If there is such
a thing as a site-wide configuration, I'd say cloning (copying) that
configuration to another site would be a separate operation or utility from
cloning (copying) a list's configuration.  The latter, whether between sites
or within a site, should take just that list's specific configuration
(including customized HTML files), leaving the list to inherit the target
site's factor-installed or site-wide configuration that have not been
customized for this list. 

    > If you
    > do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on
    > the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide
    > location?  

In the site-wide location(s), whatever they may be.

    > And what if there are conflicts?

Since a particular HTML file appears in
/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/ only if it has been
customized, I don't see how there could be any conflicts.  If a page has
note been customized, wouldn't that list just inherit the site's version of
that page?

~ Ken




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Sep  6 20:21:22 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:21:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>
References: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
	<002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060906110833.07b531b8@crimson-dragon.com>

Ken Winter did speak thusly:
>Thanks for the responses on copying customized HTML files.

You are welcome and I am surprised that this has not been discussed before.

This is something that really deserves a FAQ entry. If I have time 
later to do so, I may work one up. If not, and somebody else has the 
motivation, go for it.

>Dragon was right about the location of customized files:
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/.  Alas, I don't have the
>permissions to write to those dirs, so it's back to cut-and-paste on the web
>site.

Well that is a problem. :-(

Can you get one of the server admins to do it for you or to add you 
to the mailman group so you can?

>Some other comments are inserted below.

Likewise.

>~ Ken
>
>     On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
>
>     > The templates are stored in the filesystem, in a variety of different
>     > places depending on whether you're talking about the standard
>     > as-shipped language dependent versions, the standard as-shipped
>     > language independent versions, the site-wide language independent
>     > versions, site-wide language dependent versions, list-specific
>     > language independent versions, or list-specific language dependent
>     > versions, and that's just the six different potential combinations
>     > that I can come up with off the top of my head -- I'm pretty sure
>     > that there are some others that I haven't thought of.
>
>     I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
>     you tell me where they end up if they're created?
>
>Mine (for an English language list) are in
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/en/<docname, e.g. listinfo.html>.  I
>assume that if you have different languages you have to customize your HTML
>pages separately for each language.

That seems to be the case but I have not tested this out or dug into 
the code to confirm.

>     > How you would pick and choose which specific templates are to be
>     > considered as part of the configuration for a given list would be a
>     > complex subject.
>
>If all of a list's customized HTML pages are under
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/, they are part of that
>list's configuration, and should be copied to the corresponding dirs for the
>target list's.

That would seem to be the logical course of action. Since these 
customized versions are under each list directory, it should be a 
fairly simple matter to modify the code to copy them to the new list directory.

>     > Do you copy the site-wide versions or not?
>
>I'm not sure where these live or how they get established.  If there is such
>a thing as a site-wide configuration, I'd say cloning (copying) that
>configuration to another site would be a separate operation or utility from
>cloning (copying) a list's configuration.  The latter, whether between sites
>or within a site, should take just that list's specific configuration
>(including customized HTML files), leaving the list to inherit the target
>site's factor-installed or site-wide configuration that have not been
>customized for this list.

The site-wide templates for each language are located on my system in 
the directory /usr/local/mailman/templates/<language>

These would not have to be copied because they act as the default. In 
theory, these files are the "factory default" version unless you 
modify them. Since I have custom versions of these files in the 
default directory, my only "factory default" versions are those in 
the source distribution.

The unfortunate thing here is that when I upgrade from one version to 
the next, I have to back up my versions, do the install which 
overwrites my files and then copy my files back. I suppose I ought to 
do a diff and create a patch file to make this easier in the long run.

>     > If you
>     > do copy them, do you install them in the list-specific locations on
>     > the other end, or do you install them in the appropriate site-wide
>     > location?
>
>In the site-wide location(s), whatever they may be.

As stated above, this is /usr/local/mailman/templates/<language>

>     > And what if there are conflicts?
>
>Since a particular HTML file appears in
>/usr/local/mailman/lists/<listname>/<language>/ only if it has been
>customized, I don't see how there could be any conflicts.  If a page has
>note been customized, wouldn't that list just inherit the site's version of
>that page?

That appears to be the case.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From ohanyan at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 00:31:49 2006
From: ohanyan at gmail.com (Nerses Ohanyan)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 15:31:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
Message-ID: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>

I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
a mailing list pipeline.

i.e.  I know my code should have all the includes (mm_cfg, etc...) and
def process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
BUT i do not know what kind of objects mlist, msg and msgdata are,
what their properties are and how to simply retreive the e-mail text
in simple ascii format.

Thank you for your help.


From marvictextiles1 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 01:21:53 2006
From: marvictextiles1 at yahoo.com (Kelvin Hamenya)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:21:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I will like to activate my account...
Message-ID: <20060906232153.41329.qmail@web57113.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I will like to activate my account...thanks
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From myzmailbox at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 02:48:57 2006
From: myzmailbox at gmail.com (myzmailbox)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:48:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-admin@domain bounces
Message-ID: <B62B6E4B-67E3-44D6-8F11-5376E48D371F@gmail.com>

I couldn't find this in the archives, sorry if this has been asked &  
answered...

Does anyone know if I can change the default behavior of the -admin  
address so that messages sent to listname-admin at domain.org are  
actually sent to the administrators and NOT bounced?

If not, is there another list address that can be used to reach only  
the subscribers designated as list administrators?

Thanks in advance.



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:33:03 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:33:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix and mailman content filter issue
In-Reply-To: <200609061224.45216.suuuper@messinalug.org>
References: <200609061224.45216.suuuper@messinalug.org>
Message-ID: <p0624050bc12526f199ec@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:24 PM +0200 2006-09-06, Suuuper wrote:

>  If an email is sent to a mailing list, the filter instead of archiving it
>  in each user's maildir, archives in a directory that calls
>  "listname at domain.it"

This sounds to me like a pure postfix issue, having to do with the 
way your filter is implemented and how that interacts with aliases. 
I don't think it matters what the alias is used for, which would be 
Mailman in this case.

I believe you're more likely to get useful support on this question 
from the postfix-users mailing list, and from looking at their FAQ, 
their documentation, etc....

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:40:23 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:40:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <20060906134529.85234.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060906134529.85234.qmail@web82410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050cc1252784bc5d@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:45 AM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

>   Being a nuB to Mailman (but old hand with majordomo), I have noted that if
>  a message is being processed out to one of the large customer announcement
>  lists (10,000+) that it seems the separate discussion lists' deliveries
>  slow down substanially -- from minutes to hours! One member report 18
>  hours from post to receipt.

That could be a result of a slowdown within the Mailman queue 
processing system, or it could be a slowdown within the queue 
processing system of sendmail, once the message it out of the hands 
of Mailman.

To figure out which is which, you've got to look at the date/time 
stamps for given messages in the Mailman logs and compare those to 
the corresponding date/time stamps of the messages in the sendmail 
logs, as well as looking at the date/time stamps which are put inside 
the message itself in the "Received:" headers.

If there's a huge delay between the date/time stamp placed on the 
message by sendmail when it first gets the message from Mailman, and 
when that message for that recipient is delivered (as recorded in the 
sendmail logs), then you know that the delay is within the sendmail 
queue processing system, and you can apply all the appropriate system 
tuning procedures that are specific to that MTA.

Conversely, if there is a big gap between the logged date/time stamp 
for a given message in the Mailman logs and the delay is short 
between when sendmail records having received that message from 
Mailman and when sendmail then turns around and records that message 
as being delivered, then you know that the delay is internal to 
Mailman, and you might need to do certain other things to speed up 
the process.

>   I've read most of the "tuning" methods, but have not seen anything that
>  might be best for this, except I *think* I have noticed a speedup if I
>  don't use "personalized" stuff, like on the footers. I know it switches
>  from processing individual messages to batches. Just wonder if that really
>  is the main culprit.

That could just be because you're handling a much smaller number of 
individual messages, and doesn't really tell us if the root cause of 
the delay is internal to sendmail or if it's internal to Mailman.  We 
need more information.

>   Just wondered what others have done with this type issue. I have read most
>  of the "slow" message archives.

Without more information, it's difficult to tell.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:43:57 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:43:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005701c6d134$064c5c10$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<p06240506c123a4bbd685@10.0.1.210>
	<17662.23791.133058.581689@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06240509c12419231ea1@10.0.1.210>
	<34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050dc12529382289@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:39 AM -0500 2006-09-06, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>  I didn't even know there *were* list-specific versions of that; could
>  you tell me where they end up if they're created?

The list specific stuff would be under the /usr/local/mailman/lists 
directory.  So, for example, it might be 
/usr/local/mailman/lists/example for templates that are not 
language-specific, and /usr/local/mailman/lists/example/en for 
templates that are specific to English, and 
/usr/local/mailman/lists/example/fr for templates that are specific 
to French, etc....

At least, I think that's the right path.  I haven't confirmed this 
with the information in the documentation or the FAQ with regard to 
templates, and we don't have any list-specific templates that I know 
of on any of the lists I help to administer.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:46:45 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:46:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Small list takes several days for emails to
 reach recipients
In-Reply-To: <985DD03487FF2B44B57F8CD050200A3801A785C8@rssesngtambb.rci.rogers.ca>
References: <985DD03487FF2B44B57F8CD050200A3801A785C8@rssesngtambb.rci.rogers.ca>
Message-ID: <p0624050ec1252a02520b@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:08 PM -0400 2006-09-06, Jason Cavener wrote:

>>  Mailman ver : 2.1.7
>>  Install method : CPANEL "create mailing list" (hosting service)
>>  Server OS : Linux Kernel version 2.6.17.6hg
>>  MTA : sendmail

See FAQs 1.32 and 6.11, respectively.

>>  With 10 members on a list that processes small text messages, it is
>>  taking many days for recipients to receive email.  Started happening a
>>  couple of months ago for reason unknown.  Sound familiar?
>>  Suggestions?  I am technically savvy but am new to Mailman.

There's virtually no technical information here.  You'd have to 
provide a lot more details before we'd be likely to be able to 
provide any assistance.  Right now, all we can say is that it does 
appear you have a problem.

At the very least, I suggest you read all of the FAQ entries that 
mention the keywords "performance" and "sendmail".

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:53:39 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:53:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Config_list doesn't copy the "Public HTML Pages"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060906110833.07b531b8@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <34a783b20609060839u19986ef7o5f59053ef4bc071a@mail.gmail.com>
	<002f01c6d1dc$07efe390$6703a8c0@kenxp>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060906110833.07b531b8@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050fc1252b7eaadf@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:21 AM -0700 2006-09-06, Dragon wrote:

>  The site-wide templates for each language are located on my system in
>  the directory /usr/local/mailman/templates/<language>

That's the location for the as-shipped default templates, which will 
get over-written on the next re-install.

>  These would not have to be copied because they act as the default. In
>  theory, these files are the "factory default" version unless you
>  modify them. Since I have custom versions of these files in the
>  default directory, my only "factory default" versions are those in
>  the source distribution.

FAQ 4.48 says you should install these under 
/usr/local/mailman/templates/<list.host_name>/<language> (for 
domain-specific customized templates that are on a system supporting 
multiple domains), or /usr/local/mailman/templates/site/<language> 
(for customized templates that would be common to all domains served 
by a given system).

>  The unfortunate thing here is that when I upgrade from one version to
>  the next, I have to back up my versions, do the install which
>  overwrites my files and then copy my files back. I suppose I ought to
>  do a diff and create a patch file to make this easier in the long run.

If you follow the layout recommended by FAQ 4.48, that should no 
longer be a problem.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:56:25 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:56:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240510c1252c65e12f@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:

>  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
>  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
>  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
>  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
>  a mailing list pipeline.

You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't 
appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue, but I do know that this 
subject has been discussed many times on the mailman-users and 
mailman-developers lists, so you should search the archives.

When you find posts that provide the information you need, please 
feel free to create a suitable entry for the subject in the 
community-supported FAQ Wizard.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 03:57:16 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:57:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-admin@domain bounces
In-Reply-To: <B62B6E4B-67E3-44D6-8F11-5376E48D371F@gmail.com>
References: <B62B6E4B-67E3-44D6-8F11-5376E48D371F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240511c1252cd5fb5d@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:48 PM -0400 2006-09-06, myzmailbox wrote:

>  Does anyone know if I can change the default behavior of the -admin
>  address so that messages sent to listname-admin at domain.org are
>  actually sent to the administrators and NOT bounced?

I'm not sure, but that might be an old address format that was used 
with Mailman 2.0.x, but is no longer used with Mailman 2.1.x.

>  If not, is there another list address that can be used to reach only
>  the subscribers designated as list administrators?

Try listname-owner.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ohanyan at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 04:47:23 2006
From: ohanyan at gmail.com (Nerses Ohanyan)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 19:47:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <101282d10609061947r1ebc845aibc3d155bc23e98fe@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  I looked at the archives, but so far I'm not seeing anything
particularly useful.  Does anyone know what exactly is being passed to
my handler?  does anyone know where msg, mlist and msgdata are defined
(or the appropriate variables) ?   Not even sure I'm making sense.

I'll keep digging and if I find anything I'll post.

Thanks again Brad.

On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
>
> >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
> >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
> >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
> >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
> >  a mailing list pipeline.
>
> You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't
> appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue, but I do know that this
> subject has been discussed many times on the mailman-users and
> mailman-developers lists, so you should search the archives.
>
> When you find posts that provide the information you need, please
> feel free to create a suitable entry for the subject in the
> community-supported FAQ Wizard.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>   Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
>


From antennex at swbell.net  Thu Sep  7 05:11:27 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:11:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <p0624050cc1252784bc5d@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060907031127.86883.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 6:45 AM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

> Being a nuB to Mailman (but old hand with majordomo), I have noted that if
> a message is being processed out to one of the large customer announcement
> lists (10,000+) that it seems the separate discussion lists' deliveries
> slow down substanially -- from minutes to hours! One member report 18
> hours from post to receipt.

  <snip/>
That could be a result of a slowdown within the Mailman queue 
processing system, or it could be a slowdown within the queue 
processing system of sendmail, once the message it out of the hands 
of Mailman.
-- 
Brad Knowles, 

<snip>
   
  I'll have to check on the things you suggested, but just a quick response without more specifics, I've noticed it takes a long, long time for the announcement list to reach the sendmail queue -- and the "qfiles/out" is usually choked with queued messages for quite a while. It appears the discussion list has to wait in line..
   
  By past experience with majordomo, it would "cook" the big one-way announcement list for a couple hours, but still send out the discussion postings (plus regular user mail) immediately without delay -- and although the dam would burst into sendmail queue from the eventual fully-cooked (batched) announcements (10,000+), it would still pass all other requests to sendmail's queue.
   
  I know this is not majordomo, just looking for anything I may have mis-configured that may cause this delay. Sendmail has always handled my loads with ease -- all mail lists, plus individual users.
   
  I'll look at your notes more closely next.
   
  Thanks, Brad.



(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Sep  7 06:01:09 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:01:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <p06240510c1252c65e12f@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
 > 
 > >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
 > >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
 > >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
 > >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
 > >  a mailing list pipeline.
 > 
 > You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't 
 > appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue,

The basic thing you need to realize is that the email message is an
email.Message message.  See the documentation on that module in your
Python docs, or point pydoc at /usr/lib/python/email.  It's pretty
good.

Note that there is one method of the message object to recover the
original text, or maybe you can simply put the message object into a
string context, to process the whole thing.  Or, if you're
specifically looking at the body or headers, there are specific APIs
for them, but these return "cooked" Unicode strings.

Note that Mailman gets these messages raw.  Meta-data like envelope
information is stored in a separate object.  If you want to know that
stuff, you need to access that separately from the email.Message
object.

You will be running as the mailman user, I believe, so your database
will need to be writable by mailman.

One other hint is that Mailman assumes that most messages will go
through the pipeline to the end.  Thus there is liberal use of
exceptions to handle practically everything else: filtering spam,
moderation, etc.  What this means is that if (1) your code doesn't
infloop and (2) you don't change the message or meta-data objects in
any way, you can wrap your whole handler in "try: ...; except: pass"
and guarantee that it doesn't affect list delivery.

I remember that it was easy to create a new log simply by copying
existing logging code and giving it a new file name.  That can be
useful for debugging.  (Sorry, the disk that code was on went away a
week ago, but that should be enough to get you started.)

Store your code in a file, say PopulateDB, in the Handlers directory
of your Mailman installation.  Then for the list in question, do
something like

$ bin/withlist my-list
>>> import mm_cfg
>>> new_pipeline = mm_cfg.GLOBAL_PIPELINE
>>> new_pipeline.insert(10,'PopulateDB')
>>> m.Lock()
>>> m.pipeline = new_pipeline
>>> m.Save()
>>> m.Unlock()
>>> ^D
$

'm' is the MailList object.  Strictly speaking you don't need to
Unlock() it, withlist will do that, but I prefer to be pedantic.

'PopulateDB' is a suggested name.  I personally use a prefix to
identify my local handlers, but there are no community conventions for
this yet as far as I know.

I suggest 11th position because that's after a bunch of things like
spam detection that might throw out the message, but before Mailman
starts munging (AFAIK, you should check).  That may not be appropriate
(eg, if your database is going to be used in spam detection, you
probably want that Handler to be first!)

SpamDetect is probably a good Handler to model your local Handler on;
it also does textual analysis.

A final hint: bin/config_list does not know about the pipeline
attribute.  You'll need bin/withlist to access it, even just to read
it.

HTH

Steve

P.S. I'll eventually get around to posting this to the FAQ, but I've
already spent more time on email today than I should.  Feel free to
beat me to it!



From doug at sbscomp.net  Thu Sep  7 08:36:00 2006
From: doug at sbscomp.net (Douglas G. Phillips)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 01:36:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RESOLUTION: Mailman/Qmail/Plesk Problem
References: <20060906010502.eyux3ept1k4wsssw@sbscomp.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c6d247$e4416600$0301a8c0@endurance>

Prequalification: This may not work for everyone.  What I suspected is
that something in the mailman config was corrupted, or when the server
backups were restored, something was configured for the old server,
and was therefore different with the new one.  However, I noticed in
my research on this problem that there were a number of individuals
with strange issues like this, so hopefully this helps someone.

What I did:
Get a fresh copy of mailman (stock version), and compiled it, with the
expected mail gid and cgi gid used in this installation.  I then
installed it into a different working directory (/usr/local/mailman),
and copied the list configs and archives into this directory space.
Finally, I moved the plesk installation (/usr/lib/mailman) to a
different name and symlinked /usr/local/mailman to /usr/lib/mailman.

Everything is working fine now, including the plesk control panel.

So, at this point, I'm not sure whether plesk's version modifies
anything in mailman, or if they just have a front-end that manipulates
things somehow, but since it's [plesk] compiled PHP code, I won't find
out that way. But the customer is very happy, and at the moment,
that's all I am worried about... (And finally getting some sleep)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Phillips" <doug at sbscomp.net>
To: <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:05 AM
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman/Qmail/Plesk Problem


OK,

I've got another problem with Qmail/Plesk/Mailman (same customer,
rebuilt server).  Plesk is 7.5.4 reloaded.

Mail delivered fails with "need GID 110 got 101" error.  I set up the
brute-force wrapper to deliver with GID 110, and set the permissions
correctly for it to work.  Now, I'm getting the following (broken up
into multiple lines for courtesy):

qmail: 1157518628.995172 delivery 726: success:
group_mismatch_error._Mailman_expected_the_mail_wrapper_script_to_be/
executed_as_one_of_the_following_groups:/[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/
but_the_system's_mail_server_executed_the_mail_script_as_group:_"popus
er"./
Try_tweaking_the_mail_server_to_run_the_script_as_one_of_these_groups:
/
[mail,_nobody,_mailman],/or_re-run_configure_providing_the_
command_line_option:/'--with-mail-gid=popuser'./Failed_to_start_
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman./did_0+0+1/

I'm about ready to pull my hair out.  I even added the popuser user to
the mailman group in /etc/passwd.

So, that being said, are there any ideas out there?  I have been
messing with this for a week, and have not come up with anything else
to do.

--
Douglas G. Phillips
Simple Business Solutions

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.






From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 10:24:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 03:24:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <20060907031127.86883.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060907031127.86883.qmail@web82412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240515c12584557d61@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:11 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

>  I'll have to check on the things you suggested, but just a quick
>  response without more specifics, I've noticed it takes a long, long
>  time for the announcement list to reach the sendmail queue -- and
>  the "qfiles/out" is usually choked with queued messages for quite a
>  while. It appears the discussion list has to wait in line..

In that case, it seems likely that your delay is in the Mailman queue 
management process, and not within sendmail.  In that case, I 
recently did a slight cleanup on some good stuff that Nigel 
Metheringham put into the FAQ Wizard for FAQ 6.6, and I'd recommend 
you take a look at it.

You may also want to look into running multiple queue runners. 
Within sendmail, this is not too difficult, but this is a pretty 
advanced concept for Mailman.  IIRC, Barry has had some things to say 
about this in the archives of the mailman-users or mailman-developers 
mailing lists, and I'd encourage you to search the archives.

>  By past experience with majordomo, it would "cook" the big one-way
>  announcement list for a couple hours, but still send out the
>  discussion postings (plus regular user mail) immediately without delay
>  -- and although the dam would burst into sendmail queue from the
>  eventual fully-cooked (batched) announcements (10,000+), it would
>  still pass all other requests to sendmail's queue.

The issue here is that Majordomo didn't have a separate queue 
management process for handling mail as it was being processed 
through the system.  Instead, they would fork a separate Majordomo 
process for each message that was posted, and then that process would 
be responsible for handling everything to do with processing that 
message, up to the point where everything was handed off to sendmail.

The Majordomo approach has good points and bad ones.  One bad point 
is that it requires a hell of a lot more memory because you can have 
a large number of simultaneous processes in memory at any given time, 
and each one of those processes could grow to gargantuan sizes for 
even a moderately sized list.  In addition, classic Majordomo didn't 
do any chunking of the messages being sent, which causes all the 
outgoing copies of a given incoming message to be single-threaded, 
and a slow site in the middle of the list of recipients could cause 
mail for all the following recipients to be greatly delayed.

Rob Kolstad and Strata Chalup both talked about tuning Majordomo and 
sendmail for large mailing lists in their respective papers, which I 
linked from FAQ 6.3.  If you really want to know the deep internals 
of how these things work (or sometimes don't work), I'd encourage you 
to read those papers.


In the long run, the Majordomo approach is not very scalable.  IMO, 
Mailman is more scalable, but because it has it's own internal queue 
processing system, it places different demands on the system and 
requires different types of tuning for maximum performance.

I've tried to collect as much wisdom as I can in the various FAQ 
entries which have the keyword "performance" in them, but the 
internal tuning of Mailman for maximum performance is still a pretty 
black art for most of us -- I can tune sendmail or postfix with the 
best of them, but I'm way out of my depth when it comes to tuning 
Mailman itself -- that's the kind of thing for which I'd have to turn 
to Barry.

>  I know this is not majordomo, just looking for anything I may have
>  mis-configured that may cause this delay. Sendmail has always handled
>  my loads with ease -- all mail lists, plus individual users.

I'm not convinced that there is anything Majordomo-specific that you 
may have done to your server(s) that causes it/them to be less 
suitable for use with Mailman, but then I don't know everything 
you've done to your server(s).

I can tell you, with some confidence, that I know of some areas 
within Mailman that I believe could be significant bottlenecks, and 
may take a fair bit of work to resolve.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From Eberle at notebook1x1.de  Thu Sep  7 12:24:31 2006
From: Eberle at notebook1x1.de (Thomas Eberle)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:24:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Google Mail and Mailman
Message-ID: <6e2fd8140609070324v4d1ff71ct6942e78d96853ae2@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I use Google Mail and Mailman where I have a list with 5000 members. All
these 5000 members get my message with the same subject line.
After I have sent the mail I get 100 answers and they all have the same
subject/reference line again. And what makes Google Mail?
It recognizes all these 100 answers as one thread.

Now the question: Is ist possible to individualize the subject line like
using a counter or placing a variable there that pulls the member's mail
address from the database
how it is standard in a mail merging software?

Kind Regards
Thomas Eberle
Germany


From catmaxx at berrach.com  Thu Sep  7 15:05:27 2006
From: catmaxx at berrach.com (Catherine Maxwell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 08:05:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Google Mail and Mailman
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907080521.0371b120@berrach.com>

At 05:24 AM 9/7/2006, Thomas Eberle wrote:
>Now the question: Is ist possible to individualize the subject line like
>using a counter or placing a variable there that pulls the member's mail
>address from the database how it is standard in a mail merging software?

You could try to use Python format strings but my guess is that 
Mailman will ignore them in the Subject: line.  You could place a 
header at the top (first line) of the body of the message which 
should help to identify each message as a unique message.

For example, in the Digest Options and Non-Digest Options, set the 
following in the header block:

        This message is delivered to %(user_name)s at %(user_delivered_to)s

This would result in the subscriber's name and subscribed email 
address to appear in the first line of the message body which should 
identify it as a unique message to each address delivered to the same ISP.

--Catherine  



From mjnf at uevora.pt  Thu Sep  7 15:57:01 2006
From: mjnf at uevora.pt (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Filipe)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 14:57:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
Message-ID: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello

I have two problems with digests, and maybe you can help me:

- on one mailing list some users complain that they don't get their own
posts when they get the digest. I've tried this on a test list and i get
my posts so my question is if there is any setting which i might have
overlooked that would cause this?

- I'm using debian testing and recently some lists fail to send the
messages. I believe it is related to character-sets and maybe python,
but maybe some of you have a better idea. This is what I get on the
trace:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 94, in ?
    main()
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 86, in main
    mlist.send_digest_now()
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Digester.py", line 60, in
send_digest_now
    ToDigest.send_digests(self, mboxfp)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 142, in
send_digests
    send_i18n_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 324, in
send_i18n_digests
    msg = scrubber(mlist, msg)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 393, in
process
    replace_payload_by_text(msg, sep.join(text), charset)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 175, in
replace_payload_by_text
    msg.set_payload(text, charset)
  File "email/Message.py", line 218, in set_payload
  File "email/Message.py", line 242, in set_charset
TypeError: iso-8859-1


Thanks
-- 
        M?rio Filipe
        Servi?o de Computa??o da Universidade de ?vora
        mjnf at uevora.pt
        http://neptuno.sc.uevora.pt/~mjnf 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: Esta =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= uma parte de mensagem
	assinada digitalmente
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20060907/ed102faa/attachment.pgp 

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep  7 16:27:09 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:27:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Google Mail and Mailman
In-Reply-To: <6e2fd8140609070324v4d1ff71ct6942e78d96853ae2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e2fd8140609070324v4d1ff71ct6942e78d96853ae2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240517c125dbef0547@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:24 PM +0200 2006-09-07, Thomas Eberle wrote:

>  Now the question: Is ist possible to individualize the subject line like
>  using a counter or placing a variable there that pulls the member's mail
>  address from the database how it is standard in a mail merging software?

Mailman is not a mail-merge program.  Nor is it a customer-relations 
management program.  Nor does it have a user database, at least not 
the kind you're thinking of.  On these subjects, you should take a 
look at FAQ entries like 3.18, 3.37, and 3.40.

However, in FAQ 4.43, Tokio Kikichi mentions a patch which might be 
related to your question.

Nevertheless, I would suggest that you spend some time searching the 
FAQ and reading the various entries, to make sure that you've covered 
all your bases.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From thompson at bwcoe.com  Thu Sep  7 16:16:23 2006
From: thompson at bwcoe.com (Matthew Thompson)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:16:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609061947r1ebc845aibc3d155bc23e98fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<101282d10609061947r1ebc845aibc3d155bc23e98fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200609070916.24183.thompson@bwcoe.com>

When I implemented a custom handler for my server, I followed this FAQ:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.067.htp

Between that, the python docs that someone else mentioned and looking at the 
existing handlers in Mailman/Handlers I was able to get things going with 
little trouble.

Good luck,
-Matt

On Wednesday 06 September 2006 21:47, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
> Thanks.  I looked at the archives, but so far I'm not seeing anything
> particularly useful.  Does anyone know what exactly is being passed to
> my handler?  does anyone know where msg, mlist and msgdata are defined
> (or the appropriate variables) ?   Not even sure I'm making sense.
>
> I'll keep digging and if I find anything I'll post.
>
> Thanks again Brad.
>
> On 9/6/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> > At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
> > >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
> > >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
> > >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
> > >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
> > >  a mailing list pipeline.
> >
> > You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't
> > appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue, but I do know that this
> > subject has been discussed many times on the mailman-users and
> > mailman-developers lists, so you should search the archives.
> >
> > When you find posts that provide the information you need, please
> > feel free to create a suitable entry for the subject in the
> > community-supported FAQ Wizard.
> >
> > --
> > Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
> >
> > "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> > temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
> >
> >      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
> >      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
> >
> >   Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ohanyan at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 23:14:47 2006
From: ohanyan at gmail.com (Nerses Ohanyan)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 14:14:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>

I have set up everything, but it simply doesn't work.  How can I debug
my code?  How can I see what the code is doing (i.e. can I print to
terminal?)

Thanks

On 9/7/06, Nerses Ohanyan <ohanyan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you.  That's exactly what I needed to know.  Unfortunately, I'm
> really not an expert with python or mailman, so I hesitate to write
> FAQ documents, fearing that I might actually confuse someone rather
> then help them.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On 9/6/06, stephen at xemacs.org <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> > Brad Knowles writes:
> >  > At 3:31 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:
> >  >
> >  > >  I have a python script that can process an ascii text file, but I want
> >  > >  to run this script for one of my mailing lists, so that it processes
> >  > >  the e-mail message (the script populates my database).  Where can I
> >  > >  find help with details about writing python scripts to be inserted in
> >  > >  a mailing list pipeline.
> >  >
> >  > You're looking for a custom handler.  Unfortunately, there don't
> >  > appear to be any FAQs addressing this issue,
> >
> > The basic thing you need to realize is that the email message is an
> > email.Message message.  See the documentation on that module in your
> > Python docs, or point pydoc at /usr/lib/python/email.  It's pretty
> > good.
> >
> > Note that there is one method of the message object to recover the
> > original text, or maybe you can simply put the message object into a
> > string context, to process the whole thing.  Or, if you're
> > specifically looking at the body or headers, there are specific APIs
> > for them, but these return "cooked" Unicode strings.
> >
> > Note that Mailman gets these messages raw.  Meta-data like envelope
> > information is stored in a separate object.  If you want to know that
> > stuff, you need to access that separately from the email.Message
> > object.
> >
> > You will be running as the mailman user, I believe, so your database
> > will need to be writable by mailman.
> >
> > One other hint is that Mailman assumes that most messages will go
> > through the pipeline to the end.  Thus there is liberal use of
> > exceptions to handle practically everything else: filtering spam,
> > moderation, etc.  What this means is that if (1) your code doesn't
> > infloop and (2) you don't change the message or meta-data objects in
> > any way, you can wrap your whole handler in "try: ...; except: pass"
> > and guarantee that it doesn't affect list delivery.
> >
> > I remember that it was easy to create a new log simply by copying
> > existing logging code and giving it a new file name.  That can be
> > useful for debugging.  (Sorry, the disk that code was on went away a
> > week ago, but that should be enough to get you started.)
> >
> > Store your code in a file, say PopulateDB, in the Handlers directory
> > of your Mailman installation.  Then for the list in question, do
> > something like
> >
> > $ bin/withlist my-list
> > >>> import mm_cfg
> > >>> new_pipeline = mm_cfg.GLOBAL_PIPELINE
> > >>> new_pipeline.insert(10,'PopulateDB')
> > >>> m.Lock()
> > >>> m.pipeline = new_pipeline
> > >>> m.Save()
> > >>> m.Unlock()
> > >>> ^D
> > $
> >
> > 'm' is the MailList object.  Strictly speaking you don't need to
> > Unlock() it, withlist will do that, but I prefer to be pedantic.
> >
> > 'PopulateDB' is a suggested name.  I personally use a prefix to
> > identify my local handlers, but there are no community conventions for
> > this yet as far as I know.
> >
> > I suggest 11th position because that's after a bunch of things like
> > spam detection that might throw out the message, but before Mailman
> > starts munging (AFAIK, you should check).  That may not be appropriate
> > (eg, if your database is going to be used in spam detection, you
> > probably want that Handler to be first!)
> >
> > SpamDetect is probably a good Handler to model your local Handler on;
> > it also does textual analysis.
> >
> > A final hint: bin/config_list does not know about the pipeline
> > attribute.  You'll need bin/withlist to access it, even just to read
> > it.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > P.S. I'll eventually get around to posting this to the FAQ, but I've
> > already spent more time on email today than I should.  Feel free to
> > beat me to it!
> >
> >
>


From antennex at swbell.net  Thu Sep  7 23:55:15 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running large announce list & forums
In-Reply-To: <p06240515c12584557d61@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060907215515.17602.qmail@web82411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 8:11 PM -0700 2006-09-06, Jack Stone wrote:

> I'll have to check on the things you suggested, but just a quick
> response without more specifics, I've noticed it takes a long, long
> time for the announcement list to reach the sendmail queue -- and
> the "qfiles/out" is usually choked with queued messages for quite a
> while. It appears the discussion list has to wait in line..

In that case, it seems likely that your delay is in the Mailman queue 
management process, and not within sendmail. In that case, I 
recently did a slight cleanup on some good stuff that Nigel 
Metheringham put into the FAQ Wizard for FAQ 6.6, and I'd recommend 
you take a look at it.

<JLS> Brad, good suggestion on FAQ 6.6
  This change below seems to have made a great improvement in performance/speed. The smaller batches starting hitting the sendmail queue almost instantly and the forum activities haven't suffered.
   
  Make sure your batch size is small:
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10
Set your qrunner proc to live longer, and extend the lock life:
QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(10)
QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = minutes(15)
QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 300
Set these to 20 hours, 2 hours and 50000
   
  Thanks for the tip!
   


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 00:21:50 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 17:21:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240522c1264bad35a6@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:14 PM -0700 2006-09-07, Nerses Ohanyan wrote:

>  I have set up everything, but it simply doesn't work.  How can I debug
>  my code?  How can I see what the code is doing (i.e. can I print to
>  terminal?)

Unfortunately, Python doesn't have a lot of debugging tools.  You can 
either run the program interactively, or you can add some print or 
logging statements, and that's about all I know of.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dellsworth at insightbb.com  Fri Sep  8 02:17:00 2006
From: dellsworth at insightbb.com (David Ellsworth)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 20:17:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
Message-ID: <C1262EBC.162D7%dellsworth@insightbb.com>

I've setup a MM2.1.5 newsletter list and set it up to accept emails with the
option added in the first line of the email Approved: password.

Problem is I can't get it to accept an HTML file formatted email without
messing up my HTML and removing the Approved: password line.

The file looks like this:

Approved: password

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>

    <head> rest of HTML here

The HTML email is sent by the list but the HTML is largely removed and the
Approved: password is left in.

I've also set the Content filtering=>remove message attachments to blank and
the Should Mailman convert... to No.

The following is included in the HTML email:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=AppleScriptHTMLbreak
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.355 tagged_above=-999 required=20
 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, AWL, BAYES_00, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY,
 MPART_ALT_DIFF
X-Spam-Level: 

--AppleScriptHTMLbreak
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


--AppleScriptHTMLbreak
Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html";
   boundary=AppleScriptBreak
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is an HTML email

--AppleScriptBreak
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Any ideas? 

TIA

David



From andyk at spunge.org  Fri Sep  8 02:02:45 2006
From: andyk at spunge.org (Andy)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 19:02:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to filter just HTML, but not attachements?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609071901220.11880@chi.spunge.org>

Is that possible to set up filters to remove all HTML from all messages, but
to let through any attachements, like word documents, graphic files etc. send
to lists.
How to do that?

Regards
andy



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 03:13:50 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 20:13:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to filter just HTML, but not attachements?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609071901220.11880@chi.spunge.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609071901220.11880@chi.spunge.org>
Message-ID: <p06240527c12671e72b04@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:02 PM -0500 2006-09-07, Andy wrote:

>  Is that possible to set up filters to remove all HTML from all messages, but
>  to let through any attachements, like word documents, graphic files etc. send
>  to lists.
>  How to do that?

The problem is that the way you think of an e-mail message, and the 
way that the computer sees that e-mail message, are two completely 
and totally different things.

You see HTML e-mail and attachments as two separate objects.  The 
computer sees a wide variety of MIME bodypart types and encodings, 
some of which may recursively include other MIME bodypart types using 
other encodings.


So, you want to set up Mailman to convert HTML to plain text, and you 
want to set up your system to strip the typical HTML non-plain 
bodypart types, but not the other MIME bodypart types.

To really make this work right, you're going to want to get a very 
large sample of as many different types of messages as could possibly 
be posted to the list, and then carefully go through the complete 
list of MIME bodypart types and make sure you know which ones fall 
into which categories.

Problem is, there is far more weirdness out there than you can 
possibly imagine, and far more seriously broken code out there than 
you can possibly imagine, and you'll never be able to get even a 
moderately complete list of the various different MIME bodypart types 
in all their various different forms.


The other way to approach this problem is to go through what you can 
relatively easily collect and set up a relatively simple 
categorization of the MIME bodypart types in question.

Then, whenever someone has a problem that you've never heard of 
before (like some attachment being stripped that shouldn't, or some 
HTML being allowed through that shouldn't), you'll have to go through 
the process of collecting sample messages and looking at the various 
different MIME bodypart types in question, and then configuring 
Mailman to handle those specific new types appropriately.


Some groups lie to you and try to make this look one-click easy, but 
the reality is truly far stranger than you could ever imagine.  It's 
not one-click easy, and it never will be.

If you allow yourself to be tricked into thinking it's one-click 
easy, there will come a day when you find out -- the hard way -- some 
small part of just how weird this problem really is.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 03:17:32 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 20:17:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C1262EBC.162D7%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
References: <C1262EBC.162D7%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <p06240528c126745fbf28@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:17 PM -0400 2006-09-07, David Ellsworth wrote:

>  I've setup a MM2.1.5 newsletter list and set it up to accept emails with the
>  option added in the first line of the email Approved: password.
>
>  Problem is I can't get it to accept an HTML file formatted email without
>  messing up my HTML and removing the Approved: password line.

See my other response (to andyk at spunge.org) regarding HTML filtering.

Handling HTML e-mail is hard enough when you're not trying to do any 
kind of processing or filtering to any of the content of the message. 
Trying to put some content filtering into that mix makes the problem 
exponentially harder.  Even something that is apparently as simple as 
stripping the "Approved:" header.


If you can get the "Approved:" line out of the body of the message 
and into the actual headers of the message, that will make things a 
lot easier.


But don't ever let anyone lie to you and try to convince you that 
doing content filtering on HTML e-mail is easy.

It's only easy if you have no concept of what is actually going on 
underneath the hood, and then it's only easy until what's going on 
underneath the hood fails in some catastrophic way.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ddjones at riddlemaster.org  Fri Sep  8 05:59:30 2006
From: ddjones at riddlemaster.org (Daniel D Jones)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 23:59:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron errors
Message-ID: <200609072359.30208.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>

Getting the following complaints from the senddigest cron job:

Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "/var/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 94, in ?
? ? main()
? File "/var/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 86, in main
? ? mlist.send_digest_now()
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Digester.py", line 60, in send_digest_now
? ? ToDigest.send_digests(self, mboxfp)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 142, in 
send_digests
? ? send_i18n_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 324, in 
send_i18n_digests
? ? msg = scrubber(mlist, msg)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 393, in process
? ? replace_payload_by_text(msg, sep.join(text), charset)
? File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 175, in 
replace_payload_by_text
? ? msg.set_payload(text, charset)
? File "email/Message.py", line 218, in set_payload
? File "email/Message.py", line 242, in set_charset
TypeError: us-ascii

Not a  python programmer, so I have no idea what to do to deal with this.   
Suggestions?



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep  8 07:41:00 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 14:41:00 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Writing a Mailman Script
In-Reply-To: <101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101282d10609061531y3658aa9ev8ee75ccd672ee225@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240510c1252c65e12f@10.0.1.210>
	<17663.39301.444398.644184@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<101282d10609071103i3c6e2acdi66493ef6d6be9a3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<101282d10609071414q369c1246hf030794c089c1077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17665.620.533413.677403@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Nerses Ohanyan writes:

 > I have set up everything, but it simply doesn't work.  How can I debug
 > my code?  How can I see what the code is doing (i.e. can I print to
 > terminal?)

You can run it under an interactive Python, I'm sure, but you'll need
to do a bunch of importing by hand and preparation of test input and
stuff like that.  It will depend on what your code does.  I've never
done it, though, so I can't really say.

As I wrote, you can write to a log, there are a couple of examples in
the standard handlers.  If you want to see that in real time, you can
tail the log.  It's as easy as

from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
def process(mlist, msg, msgdata):
    syslog('mylog', 'Got right HERE -->  <-- I mean, LEFT here!')

and you'll find the "got here ..." message in $MAILMAN_HOME/log/mylog.

If you want something more interactive than that, it's beyond my
experience.  I'd suggest that you ask on comp.lang.python, but of
course you'll have to provide most of the Mailman specifics yourself.

HTH

Steve



From dellsworth at insightbb.com  Fri Sep  8 13:43:31 2006
From: dellsworth at insightbb.com (David Ellsworth)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 07:43:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <p06240528c126745fbf28@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>

Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
telling me that that isn't going to be the case? I'm using an applescript
with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
header? 

Thanks

David


On 9/7/06 9:17 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> At 8:17 PM -0400 2006-09-07, David Ellsworth wrote:
> 
>>  I've setup a MM2.1.5 newsletter list and set it up to accept emails with the
>>  option added in the first line of the email Approved: password.
>> 
>>  Problem is I can't get it to accept an HTML file formatted email without
>>  messing up my HTML and removing the Approved: password line.
> 
> See my other response (to andyk at spunge.org) regarding HTML filtering.
> 
> Handling HTML e-mail is hard enough when you're not trying to do any
> kind of processing or filtering to any of the content of the message.
> Trying to put some content filtering into that mix makes the problem
> exponentially harder.  Even something that is apparently as simple as
> stripping the "Approved:" header.
> 
> 
> If you can get the "Approved:" line out of the body of the message
> and into the actual headers of the message, that will make things a
> lot easier.
> 
> 
> But don't ever let anyone lie to you and try to convince you that
> doing content filtering on HTML e-mail is easy.
> 
> It's only easy if you have no concept of what is actually going on
> underneath the hood, and then it's only easy until what's going on
> underneath the hood fails in some catastrophic way.



From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Fri Sep  8 14:17:26 2006
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 07:17:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <C126C986.28014%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>

On 9/8/06 6:43 AM, David Ellsworth at dellsworth at insightbb.com wrote:

> Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
> way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
> telling me that that isn't going to be the case? I'm using an applescript
> with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
> email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
> header? 

No need for a different mail client as Entourage will add headers. It's on
the Options pane of the account edit window. Since that's not a Mailman
issue, ask me off-line if you need more information.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 18:09:04 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:09:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
References: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1274515f810@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:43 AM -0400 2006-09-08, David Ellsworth wrote:

>  Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
>  way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
>  telling me that that isn't going to be the case?

It's not going to be as easy as you had hoped.  At least, not unless 
you can find a way to put the "Approved:" line into the header of the 
message.

The problems lie in the vagaries of how HTML is interpreted by each 
cog in the system, and how unintentional changes at any one point 
could have potentially catastrophic results downstream, at least for 
certain clients.

>                                                    I'm using an applescript
>  with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
>  email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
>  header?

I'm not sure about what capabilities you will find with which 
programs, certainly not from a scripting perspective.  Personally, if 
I need a CLI/scriptable client, I'll go with something like 
/usr/bin/Mail or mutt, both of which are typical Unix text-mode MUAs. 
But then I was using /usr/bin/Mail twenty years ago, and I don't 
think that it's going to be the kind of program you're looking for. 
Neither of these programs do HTML, for one thing.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From briano at aiaa.org  Fri Sep  8 17:17:17 2006
From: briano at aiaa.org (Brian Oliver)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 11:17:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman Section 508 Compliant?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.40.1157709609.14783.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.40.1157709609.14783.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <4501897D.3000708@aiaa.org>

I currently support a 2.1.4 version of mailman, which a government 
organization is using.  I have been tasked section 508 compliance, and I 
am noticing that WebXACT http://webxact.watchfire.com/ is reporting 
various section 508 compliance errors when I run the tool against some 
of the out of the box pages that mailman provides for each list.

QUESTIONS:
1) Are newer releases of mailman more compliant?  If no, then are there 
plans to make a future release compliant?
2) Anyone have any tips for me?

Thanks,

Brian Oliver


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep  8 19:01:58 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 12:01:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman Section 508 Compliant?
In-Reply-To: <4501897D.3000708@aiaa.org>
References: <mailman.40.1157709609.14783.mailman-users@python.org>
	<4501897D.3000708@aiaa.org>
Message-ID: <p06240503c1274d9ef833@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:17 AM -0400 2006-09-08, Brian Oliver wrote:

>  1) Are newer releases of mailman more compliant?  If no, then are there
>  plans to make a future release compliant?

I certainly don't recall ever hearing of "Section 508 Compliance" 
before, and using search engines looking for the term "Section 508 
Compliance" on the python.org site, I don't come up with any hits at 
all.

Searching a bit wider, I do come up with a couple of hits for 
"Section 508" on the Mailman-related mailing lists, see 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-June.txt> 
and 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-July.txt> 
and search for "Section 508" on the page.

>  2) Anyone have any tips for me?

Well, at least some of the Mailman developers have at least heard of 
it, but beyond the information found in the archives mentioned above, 
I'm not sure that anyone has any new information.

Beyond that, you could always file a Request For Enhancement at the 
Mailman RFE page on SourceForge (see 
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=103&atid=350103>), or 
perhaps do some development of your own (or get someone else to do 
the development for you) and then contribute that work back to the 
project through the Mailman Patch page on SourceForge (see 
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=103&atid=300103>).

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From Peter at cww.org.uk  Fri Sep  8 21:22:47 2006
From: Peter at cww.org.uk (Peter Edley)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:22:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
Message-ID: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there

I'm in the middle of trying to set up mailman.  I have everything
working except for the non-digest mode.

I have set up 3 test users.

If i subscribe users as digest and then send emails the emails are
sent out in digest at the relevant time.

If i subscribe users as non-digest, then send emails the email gets
added to the archive but is not sent out.

Any help on this matter would be greatfully received.

-- 
Peter Edley
http://www.handsworthchristianschool.co.uk
http://www.childrenworldwide.co.uk

135 Atlantic Road
Sheffield
S8 7GD

TELEPHONE      0114 2378788
MOBILE             07729 501215


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  8 22:18:10 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:18:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>

Peter Edley wrote:
>Hi there
>
>I'm in the middle of trying to set up mailman.  I have everything
>working except for the non-digest mode.
>
>I have set up 3 test users.
>
>If i subscribe users as digest and then send emails the emails are
>sent out in digest at the relevant time.
>
>If i subscribe users as non-digest, then send emails the email gets
>added to the archive but is not sent out.
>
>Any help on this matter would be greatfully received.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Sounds to me like your outgoing qrunner is not working.

What do your mailman error and qrunner logs say?

You should see something like this if you do  ps aux | grep mailman

mailman   2738  0.0  0.3  11956  6656 ?        Ss   Sep05   0:00 
/usr/bin/python bin/mailmanctl start
mailman  31577  0.0  0.3  13144  7880 ?        S    Sep06   0:07 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31578  0.0  0.3  11720  6516 ?        S    Sep06   0:01 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31579  0.0  0.3  11736  6508 ?        S    Sep06   0:01 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31580  0.0  0.3  12172  6940 ?        S    Sep06   0:04 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31581  0.0  0.3  11788  6536 ?        S    Sep06   0:02 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31582  0.0  0.3  12252  7040 ?        S    Sep06   0:04 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31583  0.0  0.3  12144  6812 ?        S    Sep06   0:04 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  31584  0.0  0.3  11800  6496 ?        S    Sep06   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
root     14080  0.0  0.0   3760   700 pts/0    S+   13:09   0:00 grep mailman



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com  Fri Sep  8 22:44:55 2006
From: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com (Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:44:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages
In-Reply-To: <p06240505c123a3cc9e51@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F5C0@farquaad.us.omicron.at>

Hi Brad, Thanks for the reply.  We did an update of Mailman in RedHat ES 3
and now Mailman is version 2.1.5.1-25.  However, we are still getting the
generic subject line (confirm aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c) for
list subscription confirmation email.  Attached is the mm_cfg.py we used.
Can you or other Mailman experts take a quick look at it and let us know if
we are doing something wrong?  Or Are we missing some other configuration
option in the Mailman Admin GUI or elsewhere?

Many Thanks,
Jimmy

Contents of mm_cfg.py: ============================================
"""This module contains your site-specific settings.

>From a brand new distribution it should be copied to mm_cfg.py.  If you
already have an mm_cfg.py, be careful to add in only the new settings you
want.  Mailman's installation procedure will never overwrite your mm_cfg.py
file.

The complete set of distributed defaults, with documentation, are in the
file Defaults.py.  In mm_cfg.py, override only those you want to change,
after the

  from Defaults import *

line (see below).

Note that these are just default settings; many can be overridden via the
administrator and user interfaces on a per-list or per-user basis.

"""

###############################################
# Here's where we get the distributed defaults.

from Defaults import *
import pwd, grp

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.

##############################################################
#    Here's where we override shipped defaults with settings #
#    suitable for the RPM package.                           #
MAILMAN_UID = pwd.getpwnam('mailman')[2]
MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam('mailman')[2]
LOG_DIR     = '/var/log/mailman'
QUEUE_DIR   = '/var/spool/mailman/qfiles'

##############################################################
#    IMPORTANT! - You must set these domain names!           #
# 
# Mailman needs to know about (at least) two fully-qualified domain # names
(fqdn) # # 1) the hostname used in your urls (DEFAULT_URL_HOST) # 2) the
hostname used in email addresses for your domain (DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST) # #
For example, if people visit your Mailman system with #
"http://www.dom.ain/mailman" then your url fqdn is "www.dom.ain", # and if
people send mail to your system via "yourlist at dom.ain" then # your email
fqdn is "dom.ain".  DEFAULT_URL_HOST controls the former, # and
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST controls the latter.  Mailman also needs to # know how to
map from one to the other (this is especially important # if you're running
with virtual domains).  You use # "add_virtualhost(urlfqdn, emailfqdn)" to
add new mappings.

DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'mm_cfg_has_not_been_edited_to_set_host_domains'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mm_cfg_has_not_been_edited_to_set_host_domains'

# Because we've overriden the virtual hosts above add_virtualhost # MUST be
called after they have been defined.

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes

add_virtualhost('mlists.xyz.com')

# Set to enable VERP-like (more user friendly) confirmations
VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

============================================================================
=======

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad at stop.mail-abuse.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:02 PM
To: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages


At 4:20 PM -0500 2006-09-05, <Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com> wrote:

>  Hi, Does the VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes only works on certain version 
> of  Mailman? We have Mailman version 2.1.1-5, Python 3.0.4-0.1, and 
> Qmail
>  (1.03-rhel3) and have set the setting as suggested; but we are still
getting
>  the generic subject line for list subscription confirmation email.

Looking through the source, Mailman 2.1.5 mentions this option, but 
I've having trouble using Subversion to figure out precisely when 
this was introduced.  I know that the code around this option has 
changed more than once, but that's about all I can tell you right now.

I can tell you that the latest current version right now is version 
2.1.8, and 2.1.9 will be released very soon.  2.1.9rc1 is out now, 
and we're already running it on python.org.  There are some important 
security fixes coming with 2.1.9, so I highly recommend that you get 
this version for your site as soon as it is available.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  8 22:51:31 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:51:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>

Peter Edley sent the message below at 13:26 9/8/2006:
>Thanks for the reply, i would have thought if that wasn't running then
>it wouldn't send out the digest ones as well, but this is what i get,
>have a look at let me know what you think.
>
>mailman  14045  0.0  0.0  8088 5412 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>mailman  14046  0.0  0.0  8568 5940 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14047  0.0  0.0  8168 5428 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14048  0.0  0.0  8080 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14049  0.0  0.0  8500 5656 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14050  0.0  0.0  8376 5448 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14051  0.0  0.0  8416 5680 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14052  0.0  0.0  8480 5556 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14053  0.0  0.0  8108 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00 
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
>root     30390  0.0  0.0  1416  492 pts/0    S    20:23   0:00 grep mailman
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

That looks right to me.

The sending of digests is handled by the senddigests script in the 
cron directory, I am not sure exactly how it sends things but I don't 
think it uses the outgoing qrunner. I could be mistaken on that and I 
am sure one of the more knowledgeable members will correct me if I am wrong.

Have you tried a restart of mailman? The outgoing process is running 
but that does not necessarily mean that it is "awake" and able to 
process anything.

To troubleshoot further, we will need more info.

Have you examined the qrunner, post, vette, smtp, and error logs? On 
your system they should be located in /var/mailman/logs

If the posts are getting to your MTA, you will need to look at its 
logs to see if you can find anything there.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Fri Sep  8 23:18:39 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:18:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126CFA3.1638C%dellsworth@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <C1272C3F.E851%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 9/8/06 4:43 AM, "David Ellsworth" <dellsworth at insightbb.com> wrote:

> Uh, thanks for that Brad, I got it, it's complicated. All I need is a simple
> way to get a formatted html email with Approved through the system. You're
> telling me that that isn't going to be the case? I'm using an applescript
> with Entourage on OS 10.47 to send the file to mailman. Perhaps another
> email client that allows me to put the Approved comment in the email file
> header? 

I see two fairly obvious ways to proceed.

1.  Create an Account in Entourage, and insert the needed Approved: header
manually into that account's additional headers area.  Then send messages to
the list using that account (in your scripting).

2.  Using Applescript to modify a single account, you may be able to set the
"Exchange account" object's "additional headers" property early in the
sending script to contain the needed header, then prepare and send the
message, then restore the additional headers property to normal (probably
empty).

I haven't tried this.  The Entourage version I'm looking at is 11.2.5.  Note
that if someone manually sends a message at an inconvenient moment, the
header would be part of it.  Suggest debugging the script using a bogus
password in the Approved: header.

  --John






From Peter at cww.org.uk  Fri Sep  8 23:48:29 2006
From: Peter at cww.org.uk (Peter Edley)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 22:48:29 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <185963280609081448y6112e983vec41369238dd960f@mail.gmail.com>

ok I've carried out some more investigation into this.  the 3 emails i
set up to test all forwarded to my google mail account.

I have now set up one of them as a seperate pop3 address one as a
forward to that address and one as a forward to my google mail
account.

The pop3 one receives no problem the forward to that address again no
problem the one that forwards to google message never arrives.

So i added my google mail account to the list.

And again no mail comes through.

Now my registration for the Mailman-users list comes into my google
mail no problem so there is something to do with the set up of my mail
man that won't let it send to google.

Anybody else have this problem, i could go ahead and launch but the
problem is i know that at least 2 of the people who will be on the
final list use google mail.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Date: Sep 8, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Problem with non-digest mode
To: Peter Edley <Peter at cww.org.uk>, mailman mailing list
<mailman-users at python.org>


Peter Edley sent the message below at 13:26 9/8/2006:
>Thanks for the reply, i would have thought if that wasn't running then
>it wouldn't send out the digest ones as well, but this is what i get,
>have a look at let me know what you think.
>
>mailman  14045  0.0  0.0  8088 5412 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>mailman  14046  0.0  0.0  8568 5940 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14047  0.0  0.0  8168 5428 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14048  0.0  0.0  8080 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14049  0.0  0.0  8500 5656 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14050  0.0  0.0  8376 5448 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14051  0.0  0.0  8416 5680 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14052  0.0  0.0  8480 5556 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
>mailman  14053  0.0  0.0  8108 5416 ?        S    18:23   0:00
>/usr/bin/python /
>var/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
>root     30390  0.0  0.0  1416  492 pts/0    S    20:23   0:00 grep mailman
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

That looks right to me.

The sending of digests is handled by the senddigests script in the
cron directory, I am not sure exactly how it sends things but I don't
think it uses the outgoing qrunner. I could be mistaken on that and I
am sure one of the more knowledgeable members will correct me if I am wrong.

Have you tried a restart of mailman? The outgoing process is running
but that does not necessarily mean that it is "awake" and able to
process anything.

To troubleshoot further, we will need more info.

Have you examined the qrunner, post, vette, smtp, and error logs? On
your system they should be located in /var/mailman/logs

If the posts are getting to your MTA, you will need to look at its
logs to see if you can find anything there.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-- 
Peter Edley
http://www.handsworthchristianschool.co.uk
http://www.childrenworldwide.co.uk

135 Atlantic Road
Sheffield
S8 7GD

TELEPHONE      0114 2378788
MOBILE             07729 501215


From tenant at tenant.net  Thu Sep  7 22:19:19 2006
From: tenant at tenant.net (Tenant)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:19:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907161433.01589ef8@tenant.net>

We've been using Mailman for several years for a number of our lists, 
been reasonably happy, and will probably continue to use it.

However, no single package is the right answer for all situations. 
Some of our newer domains need packages with capabilities that 
Mailman can't provide, so I'm looking for suggestions and comments on 
various alternative open source packages (and not trying to troll).

We're looking at PHPlist, DadaMail and other packages. We need to be 
able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL and 
with html mail (or provide that as an option, which Mailman can't 
do), merge/purge lists, searchable archives, personalization and get 
around AOL/Hotmail perceived spam bouncing, etc.

In the best of worlds, I'd like to be able to maintain various fields 
on list members including name and source so, for example, we could 
decide to send an email to all list members from Source A and Source 
C, but not Source B, and if there are duplicates on lists A and B, of 
course send only one copy.

Maybe that's getting into the realm of campaign software. All of our 
list members are opt-in, but they come from various sources, so I'd 
like to be able to pick sources for each mailing and essentially 
build a list each time from various criteria.

I'd prefer open source (of course) with an active development 
community, and we maintain our own server with many virtual domains. 
I realize no single package can do all that, but suggestion and 
comments are welcome. Thanks.

John Fisher
TenantNet


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
   TenantNet(tm):          http://tenant.net
   email:                  tenant at tenant.net
Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
activists and is not considered legal advice.




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Sep  8 23:55:25 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:55:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  Problem with non-digest mode
In-Reply-To: <185963280609081448y6112e983vec41369238dd960f@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <185963280609081222l39c84caaq8695bec99fa1c334@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908131106.0619c338@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081326o3ede4b06h256f221e8d188944@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060908134117.063fc360@crimson-dragon.com>
	<185963280609081448y6112e983vec41369238dd960f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060908145216.063ed4f0@crimson-dragon.com>

Peter Edley sent the message below at 14:48 9/8/2006:
>ok I've carried out some more investigation into this.  the 3 emails i
>set up to test all forwarded to my google mail account.
>
>I have now set up one of them as a seperate pop3 address one as a
>forward to that address and one as a forward to my google mail
>account.
>
>The pop3 one receives no problem the forward to that address again no
>problem the one that forwards to google message never arrives.
>
>So i added my google mail account to the list.
>
>And again no mail comes through.
>
>Now my registration for the Mailman-users list comes into my google
>mail no problem so there is something to do with the set up of my mail
>man that won't let it send to google.
>
>Anybody else have this problem, i could go ahead and launch but the
>problem is i know that at least 2 of the people who will be on the
>final list use google mail.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Enough said.

Your list is working. It is not your list that is the problem.

Google Mail is the problem. It tries to be "helpful" by not 
displaying any messages in your in-box that you sent out or that have 
a duplicate message ID as one already there.

This ought to be a FAQ entry, it's not the first time this issue has come up.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From andyk at spunge.org  Sat Sep  9 01:22:54 2006
From: andyk at spunge.org (Andy)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 18:22:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081822230.10013@chi.spunge.org>

Hi!

I was rebuilding list archive, and during that process something
stuck, and the process has not ended.

I tried to restart it:
/var/list/bin/arch --wipe listname

but it seems to be hung up from start now.

(archive has been wiped though before it hung for the first time, because
there is nothing on WWW).

I do not know how to unblock it.

Can you please suggest what is the reason of that problem?
Which process to kill to unstuck it?

I am not server admin therefore I do not normally do such things, however
admin has given me recently access to mailman group, so I should be able to do
it myself. I need some hints from you though. Thank you.

I hope to hear from you ASAP.
Cheers!

a.



From srb at umich.edu  Sat Sep  9 02:37:13 2006
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 20:37:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <C126C986.28014%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>
References: <C126C986.28014%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <1EDEBC5F4F46BFDA589BCEE1@srb.local>

--On September 8, 2006 7:17:26 AM -0500 Larry Stone 
<lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:

> No need for a different mail client as Entourage will add headers. It's on
> the Options pane of the account edit window. Since that's not a Mailman
> issue, ask me off-line if you need more information.

To which I reply:

But be careful -- unless I'm misunderstanding, if you use that set of 
Entourage preferences for any other use, then all the mail you send will 
contain the list-approval password in the Approved header.

Probably better to get mutt from <http://www.mutt.org>, build it, and use 
that to send your mail out.

-- 
Steve Burling                                    <mailto:srb at umich.edu>
University of Michigan, ICPSR                    Voice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street                               FAX:   +1 734 647.8700
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910


From andyk at spunge.org  Sat Sep  9 02:57:36 2006
From: andyk at spunge.org (Andy)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 19:57:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>

> I was rebuilding list archive, and during that process something
> stuck, and the process has not ended.

Also e-mails seem not to be distributed over the list.
How can I restart it or ulock it?

Regarding archive rebuilding.

When I try to run it again:

$ /var/list/bin/arch listname

nothing happens, so I have to interrupt it (Ctrl+C), and only then some
messages appear:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 200, in ?
    main()
  File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 141, in main
    mlist = MailList(listname)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
    self.Lock()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 161, in Lock
    self.__lock.lock(timeout)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 312, in lock
    self.__sleep()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 496, in __sleep
    time.sleep(interval)
KeyboardInterrupt


a.



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 08:49:21 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 01:49:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609082349l2092b178rc0b305fc327c1c2d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/8/06, Andy <andyk at spunge.org> wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 200, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 141, in main
>     mlist = MailList(listname)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
>     self.Lock()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 161, in Lock
>     self.__lock.lock(timeout)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 312, in lock
>     self.__sleep()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 496, in __sleep
>     time.sleep(interval)

The traceback seems to indicate that the script is waiting for some
locks. You might try running:

mailmanctl stop

Then wait a few minutes (to give everything time to shut down) and
run: ps uaxf | grep -i python and see if there are any mailman-related
processes still running. I would kill them, but this might cause
problems or there might be a better way. (I.e., wait a bit to see if
anyone else on the list has a better idea.)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de  Sat Sep  9 09:08:56 2006
From: it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de (IT-Support @ AStA TU Darmstadt)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 09:08:56 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907161433.01589ef8@tenant.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060907161433.01589ef8@tenant.net>
Message-ID: <45026888.9090001@asta.tu-darmstadt.de>

Hello John,

this really sounds like you'd need a campaign software software :-)

Have you ever heard of "openEMM" http://www.openemm.org/ ?

May that's what you're looking for.

Best wishes,
Ivan

Tenant schrieb:
> We've been using Mailman for several years for a number of our lists, 
> been reasonably happy, and will probably continue to use it.
> 
> However, no single package is the right answer for all situations. 
> Some of our newer domains need packages with capabilities that 
> Mailman can't provide, so I'm looking for suggestions and comments on 
> various alternative open source packages (and not trying to troll).
> 
> We're looking at PHPlist, DadaMail and other packages. We need to be 
> able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL and 
> with html mail (or provide that as an option, which Mailman can't 
> do), merge/purge lists, searchable archives, personalization and get 
> around AOL/Hotmail perceived spam bouncing, etc.
> 
> In the best of worlds, I'd like to be able to maintain various fields 
> on list members including name and source so, for example, we could 
> decide to send an email to all list members from Source A and Source 
> C, but not Source B, and if there are duplicates on lists A and B, of 
> course send only one copy.
> 
> Maybe that's getting into the realm of campaign software. All of our 
> list members are opt-in, but they come from various sources, so I'd 
> like to be able to pick sources for each mailing and essentially 
> build a list each time from various criteria.
> 
> I'd prefer open source (of course) with an active development 
> community, and we maintain our own server with many virtual domains. 
> I realize no single package can do all that, but suggestion and 
> comments are welcome. Thanks.
> 
> John Fisher
> TenantNet
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
>    TenantNet(tm):          http://tenant.net
>    email:                  tenant at tenant.net
> Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
> activists and is not considered legal advice.



From Christian.Hinken at sdm.de  Sat Sep  9 10:51:46 2006
From: Christian.Hinken at sdm.de (Christian.Hinken at sdm.de)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 10:51:46 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configuring the Subject of Confirmation Emails
Message-ID: <9D13633BF976B64F8951788873D4A662B23853@ffmmail1.sdm.de>

Hello! 

On our site, Mailman 2.1.3 is used. 

The subject of the confirmation emails sent when subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing list has the form "confirm <cookie>". 

We do not need the cookie, because the content of the mail contains a link which contains the cookie. The link generates the mail to mailman.
How do you configure the subject of the confirmation emails? Any help would be appreciated. 

Christian. 




From cihany at metu.edu.tr  Sat Sep  9 10:53:31 2006
From: cihany at metu.edu.tr (Cihan Yildirim-Yucel)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:53:31 +0300 (WET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] About scrubbing attachments
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.58.0609091133460.1351684@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>


For some of the lists I have been managing, in order to make the
attachments accessible only from the web archives, I have tried to
activate the "scrub_nondigest" feature. This works, that is, the
attachments are scrubbed and a url link for each attachment is given
within the body of the messages sent to the lists. However, there does not
exist a standard rule for the file extensions reached from the archives.
For instance;

* .gif, .jpg, .pdf extensions can directly be reached from the list's web
archive.
* .htm, .html files are viewed in source code in the list's web archive.
* .doc and .xls extensions are converted into .obj extension.
* .sxw extension is converted into .zip extension.

As this is the case, I can not make use of this feature since it is very
difficult and disturbing for our users when trying to view or open the
attachments with those altered extensions from the web archives. (e.g.
files with .obj extension have to be saved and changed manually into
.doc/.xls and then they can be opened..)

While using the scrub-attachments feature, isn't it possible to reach the
attachment files as they are, from the web archives?

With regards,
____________________
Cihan YILDIRIM-YUCEL


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 15:53:00 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 08:53:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configuring the Subject of Confirmation Emails
In-Reply-To: <9D13633BF976B64F8951788873D4A662B23853@ffmmail1.sdm.de>
References: <9D13633BF976B64F8951788873D4A662B23853@ffmmail1.sdm.de>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609090653q7680dfaejbd7da28ad463475f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/9/06, Christian.Hinken at sdm.de <Christian.Hinken at sdm.de> wrote:
> The subject of the confirmation emails sent when subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing list has the form "confirm <cookie>".
>
> We do not need the cookie, because the content of the mail contains a link which contains the cookie. The link generates the mail to mailman.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have some insight
about the reason for it.
The mail is constructed so that users can simply reply to the mail as
confirmation.. This is a fairly useful feature if, for instance,
they're in a text-only environment and don't want to have to retype
the link into a browser- assuming they even have access to one.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sat Sep  9 18:15:59 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 11:15:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuilding list archive crashed?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0609081956280.592@chi.spunge.org>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609090915n664466cco4f4f7e1d683030f4@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/8/06, Andy <andyk at spunge.org> wrote:
> > I was rebuilding list archive, and during that process something
> > stuck, and the process has not ended.
>
> Also e-mails seem not to be distributed over the list.
> How can I restart it or ulock it?
>
> Regarding archive rebuilding.
>
> When I try to run it again:
>
> $ /var/list/bin/arch listname
>
> nothing happens, so I have to interrupt it (Ctrl+C), and only then some
> messages appear:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 200, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/var/list/bin/arch", line 141, in main
>     mlist = MailList(listname)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
>     self.Lock()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 161, in Lock
>     self.__lock.lock(timeout)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 312, in lock
>     self.__sleep()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 496, in __sleep
>     time.sleep(interval)
> KeyboardInterrupt

The archiver takes a 3-hour lock on the list, I believe.  I found that
when I aborted an archiving run (or it crashed), I needed to manually
unlock the list. I never actually tried waiting the 3 hours; in theory
it will override the lock after the time has expired.

In my case, where there was nothing else using the mailman
installation but my attempts to rebuild the archives, I could just "
rm locks/*" from the mailman directory.  But on a real installation
with queue-runner going and other lists and so forth, *don't do
that!*.  Possibly by inspecting the names of the lock files you can
see which ones relate to your crashed rebuild, and delete just those.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep 10 20:01:50 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 18:01:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
Message-ID: <20060910180150.18980.qmail@web25701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hi,

First of all - thanks to those who pointed me to help for setting up mailman to run under https. This now works fine.  Some may be interested to know that for reasons of security I also disabled monthly password reminders and also password reminders being sent out through the user's options.  As this is a relatively small list, users with bad memories can call the admin on the 'phone!  I think that means the system could be classed as better than "moderately" secure?  The only place where an email is sent with the password in is on registration, and users are recommended to go and change this immediately to something personal/memorable.  

Second - I have found problems with invites to AOL addresses. Is this a common issue?  If so, I'd be interested to know what the issue is, and if anything can be done (apart from obviously encouraging people to dump AOL!).

Also, I note from looking at pending.pck that one such user has a list of 'evictions' under his entry.  What is an eviction?  The entry in question is:

 'e929ac850996794ab75f6c03e908f1dc253e8747': (   'S',
                                                    <UserDesc username-deleted at aol.com () [moipocub] [digest? no] [en]>),
    'evictions': {   '003ae117d826c932853b6bbe92e84b392f6add36': 1158387865.3472359,
                     '1d5e5f824d6bea5a3116b5ad709709efe21f8169': 1158385811.192379,
                     '20bfd3d2212bcee0735e0ad067ff73ff36f151d7': 1158387865.254734,
                     '286f1ad1a6bf7cc5940f232fc7cfb2b5a14ff51e': 1158387865.2473321,
                     '2d8588ecfb3a82d7dfbd5852989f38faf0a07e93': 1158387865.310961,
                     '2f0172d763be1f0709d4c3639682f4e54e99cd5f': 1158387865.141645,
                     '5158d2a87337af5b09686756d6f0efe6f0e19d5f': 1158387865.277936,
                     '61edc1f4f55ce1f811073febb9517e331b0b61e5': 1158387865.319797,
                     '6cc076d45447fe4e8a53c7173f69f27d06bbb49b': 1158387865.224859,
                     '735f704bfaff30e44411c5cf5938ca50298480a4': 1158387865.1647251,
                     '7e685288c4ab3704846459aa8d79084f6ef092f2': 1158387865.3380909,
                     '894fa76bd789fc5cfb3b7de406e9fabaedd38d4c': 1158387865.217824,
                     '908f3dbbe3b892bfe699916be6f65d8cd333cc44': 1158387865.1587031,
                     '99e6ccdee5e2b4bc550e02b1305db2a07999ba03': 1158387865.1304629,
                     '9cc06885b749cbb38ebd79016b6b83da0102d058': 1158387865.270174,
                     'a61de3c122dc9451ba657ce2da690e313138d889': 1158387865.239975,
                     'bc2cda4864912b1482feaceaf5ef46e305340a1e': 1158387865.136193,
                     'c4359dbfadcb2910c81ec79adf8bdbfa9860d8b4': 1158387865.2859111,
                     'c67f54b61abe21fd0b71fa755724dda504035d6d': 1158083434.2926841,
                     'd26c1b2ee79d56655199686e54129725cabab321': 1158387865.197608,
                     'dbfc53b7fc28b6a72cda464722dc56f3d439e29b': 1158387865.152842,
                     'e73d1ee3b7049ded2dfd16516d903a200c1c84f1': 1158387865.1241641,
                     'e8b0853b66995dfc18d576a8a4669a0c6f0f1b6c': 1158387865.2942879,
                     'e929ac850996794ab75f6c03e908f1dc253e8747': 1158387865.1851201,
                     'f1f95811560fffebeb625ecba2411e4d6e5c75e8': 1158387865.3288679,
                     'f3b68e41056b4acceed024217921bbe4a77688c7': 1158387865.356668,
                     'fa2e6c1b728d07153e12da06248947e54e458603': 1158387865.2624021,
                     'fc250aa57fd41dafccffdf6a80dbc18aff3f636a': 1158387865.1912529},

Thanks as ever,

Jon



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep 10 21:17:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:17:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
In-Reply-To: <20060910180150.18980.qmail@web25701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060910180150.18980.qmail@web25701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050ac12a15343fa7@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:01 PM +0000 2006-09-10, Jon Loose wrote:

>  Second - I have found problems with invites to AOL addresses. Is this a
>  common issue?  If so, I'd be interested to know what the issue is, and
>  if anything can be done (apart from obviously encouraging people to
>  dump AOL!).

What problems?  Can you be more specific?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 02:18:39 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:18:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] check_perms
In-Reply-To: <mailman.124.1157932250.5277.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.124.1157932250.5277.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060911001839.GE8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>

faq03.014.htp

The FAQ entry says I should run check_perms so I did. 

Now what? The FAQ offers nothing on which files need their permissions
changed or to what mode.

ma /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin# ./check_perms
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./check_perms", line 50, in ?
    MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '




From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 04:13:02 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:13:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
Message-ID: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>

I'm running mailman-2.1.6 on NetBSD 3.0 Sparc64.

1. Mailman is user 1003, group 1003 and all the scripts and binaries in
/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/Mailman are owned by root:mailman except for:

-rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman  21200 Sep 10 21:02 Defaults.pyc
-rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman   1116 Sep 10 21:20 mm_cfg.pyc

2. mailmanctl and qrunner are not running, and never have run to my knowledge.

3. ma /etc/postfix# /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms", line 50, in ?
      MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
	KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '

4. Postfix works fine sending and receiving from mutt.

5. The perms on the aliases data dir look like this:

ma /var/db/mailman/data# ls -la
drwxrwxr-x  2 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 28 13:56 .
drwxrwxr-x  9 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 27 14:14 ..
-rw-r-----  1 root     mailman     41 Sep 10 17:51 adm.pw
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   1944 Sep 10 21:36 aliases
-rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman  65536 Sep 10 22:02 aliases.db

6. The aliases are not getting pulled into /etc/postfix/aliases from
/var/db/mailman/data/aliases, which looks like this:

# The ultimate loop stopper address
mailman-loop: /var/db/mailman/data/owner-bounces.mbox

# STANZA START: discuss
# CREATED: Sun Sep 10 21:36:43 2006
discuss:             "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post discuss"
discuss-admin:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin discuss"
discuss-bounces:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces discuss"
discuss-confirm:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm discuss"
discuss-join:        "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join discuss"
discuss-leave:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave discuss"
discuss-owner:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner discuss"
discuss-request:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request discuss"
discuss-subscribe:   "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe discuss"
discuss-unsubscribe: "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe
discuss"
# STANZA END: discuss



From ml at ancalagon.inka.de  Mon Sep 11 09:04:55 2006
From: ml at ancalagon.inka.de (Thomas Hochstein)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:04:55 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
Message-ID: <alm.0609110904.5988@windlord.akallabeth.de>

Matt Herzog schrieb:

> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms", line 50, in ?
>       MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
> 	KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '

Do you *have* a group called "mailman" in your /etc/groups (or
whereever)?


From deichmann at werkbank.com  Mon Sep 11 09:21:16 2006
From: deichmann at werkbank.com (Sven Deichmann)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:21:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <mailman.678.1157763461.5278.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.678.1157763461.5278.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <45050E6C.80708@werkbank.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,

we came accross the same problems a while ago. While we still use
Mailman for this purposes as these requirements were not too important
for us, we already did some research. But apart from mass mailing (aka
SPAM tools) we only found an extension to the CMS system Plone (runs
under Zope. python based like Mailman) named LindeMerkur.
What kept us from using this was the complexity to set it up and use it
properly later on.

It might be worth a look though, as it is highly flexible and the CMS
part could take the part of the archive. List merging could be
implemented using small parts of python code to merge the user sources
and personalization is built in (after all that was the reason to build
this tool originally as there are also extensions to plone that connect
it to mailman)

After all this isn't a ready to go solution though.

Regards,
Sven Deichmann

> We've been using Mailman for several years for a number of our lists,
> been reasonably happy, and will probably continue to use it.
> 
> However, no single package is the right answer for all situations. Some
> of our newer domains need packages with capabilities that Mailman can't
> provide, so I'm looking for suggestions and comments on various
> alternative open source packages (and not trying to troll).
> 
> We're looking at PHPlist, DadaMail and other packages. We need to be
> able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL and with
> html mail (or provide that as an option, which Mailman can't do),
> merge/purge lists, searchable archives, personalization and get around
> AOL/Hotmail perceived spam bouncing, etc.
> 
> In the best of worlds, I'd like to be able to maintain various fields on
> list members including name and source so, for example, we could decide
> to send an email to all list members from Source A and Source C, but not
> Source B, and if there are duplicates on lists A and B, of course send
> only one copy.
> 
> Maybe that's getting into the realm of campaign software. All of our
> list members are opt-in, but they come from various sources, so I'd like
> to be able to pick sources for each mailing and essentially build a list
> each time from various criteria.
> 
> I'd prefer open source (of course) with an active development community,
> and we maintain our own server with many virtual domains. I realize no
> single package can do all that, but suggestion and comments are welcome.
> Thanks.
> 
> John Fisher
> TenantNet
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Tenant Network(tm) for Residential Tenants
>   TenantNet(tm):          http://tenant.net
>   email:                  tenant at tenant.net
> Information from TenantNet is from experienced non-attorney tenant
> activists and is not considered legal advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
  Information nimmt Gestalt an... - <http://www.werkbank.com>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Werkbank Multimedia GmbH * Bergstrasse 152 * 44791 Bochum * GER
Fon: +49(0)234/ 935386-03  * Fax: 935386-06 * mail at werkbank.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkUFDmsACgkQrtkX100RwBTc1QCfe5uDM5CfREq8lxwUX+t/2Wq8
YHMAoIaJ4ZvptNi1d2A7WjihcsTEe1vR
=3PnT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From perl at ipchains.ru  Mon Sep 11 10:04:31 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg Dambaev)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:04:31 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
Message-ID: <4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>

Matt Herzog wrote:
> I'm running mailman-2.1.6 on NetBSD 3.0 Sparc64.
>
> 1. Mailman is user 1003, group 1003 and all the scripts and binaries in
> /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/Mailman are owned by root:mailman except for:
>
> -rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman  21200 Sep 10 21:02 Defaults.pyc
> -rw-r--r--   1 www   mailman   1116 Sep 10 21:20 mm_cfg.pyc
>
> 2. mailmanctl and qrunner are not running, and never have run to my knowledge.
>
> 3. ma /etc/postfix# /usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms", line 50, in ?
>       MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam(MAILMAN_GROUP)[2]
> 	KeyError: 'getgrnam(): name not found: '
>
> 4. Postfix works fine sending and receiving from mutt.
>
> 5. The perms on the aliases data dir look like this:
>
> ma /var/db/mailman/data# ls -la
> drwxrwxr-x  2 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 28 13:56 .
> drwxrwxr-x  9 mailman  mailman    512 Aug 27 14:14 ..
> -rw-r-----  1 root     mailman     41 Sep 10 17:51 adm.pw
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   1944 Sep 10 21:36 aliases
> -rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman  65536 Sep 10 22:02 aliases.db
>
> 6. The aliases are not getting pulled into /etc/postfix/aliases from
> /var/db/mailman/data/aliases, which looks like this:
>
> # The ultimate loop stopper address
> mailman-loop: /var/db/mailman/data/owner-bounces.mbox
>
> # STANZA START: discuss
> # CREATED: Sun Sep 10 21:36:43 2006
> discuss:             "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post discuss"
> discuss-admin:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin discuss"
> discuss-bounces:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces discuss"
> discuss-confirm:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm discuss"
> discuss-join:        "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join discuss"
> discuss-leave:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave discuss"
> discuss-owner:       "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner discuss"
> discuss-request:     "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request discuss"
> discuss-subscribe:   "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe discuss"
> discuss-unsubscribe: "|/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe
> discuss"
> # STANZA END: discuss
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/perl%40ipchains.ru
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   
echo "mailman:*:92:" >> /etc/group

replace ``92'' with needed groupid


From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep 11 13:50:28 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:50:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
Message-ID: <20060911115028.11378.qmail@web25704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Sure, they simply do not receive invitations to join that have been sent out.  Note, I am working on a small sample here -  there are 5-10 affected people.  However, no-one else (outside AOL) has had this kind of problem.  I assume also that the 'evictions' issue is also relevant, but I don't know.

Thanks,

Jon



----- Original Message ----
From: Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
To: Jon Loose <jjloose at yahoo.co.uk>; mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Sunday, 10 September, 2006 8:17:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL

At 6:01 PM +0000 2006-09-10, Jon Loose wrote:

>  Second - I have found problems with invites to AOL addresses. Is this a
>  common issue?  If so, I'd be interested to know what the issue is, and
>  if anything can be done (apart from obviously encouraging people to
>  dump AOL!).

What problems?  Can you be more specific?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.








From dellsworth at insightbb.com  Mon Sep 11 14:39:15 2006
From: dellsworth at insightbb.com (David Ellsworth)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:39:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML Newsletter Setup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0609081329370.15703@albion.stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <C12AD133.16734%dellsworth@insightbb.com>


Thanks to Larry's timely and knowledgeable help, I can now get the HTML to
the list this way. The problem now is that the HTML doesn't work in the
arrived email. The text is centered and the top graphic (which is correctly
linked) isn't showing up. I'm not even using any settings in Content
Filtering. Is there any other Mailman-specific settings for allowing HTML?

The file I'm using is here (the email should look like this):

http://www.circlecitysports.com/newsletter/ccsnews.html

But it comes in looking like this:

http://www.circlecitysports.com/newsletter/error.html

When I send it just to myself, it formats correctly.

Any ideas gratefully acknowledged.

Thanks

David

On 9/8/06 2:35 PM, "Larry Stone" <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, David Ellsworth wrote:
> 
>> So I tried and enter Approved: password in the header of an account's
>> options setting and it wouldn't let me add a colon. Couldn't find anything
>> in Help either. More information please?
> 
> Do what I did when testing this this morning before I sent the reply. When
> Entourage wouldn't allow me to enter a colon, I reasoned that since the
> colon is always there as a separator between the header name and the
> header value, Entourage must add it for me. I tried it on a test send to
> myself (since it's not going through Mailman, the Approved header doesn't
> get stripped*). Opened the message, looked at the header, and there it was
> with the colon as I expected.
> 
> * Just a warning that you should never CC: a message with an Approved
> header or first line to someone you don't 100% trust since it will not get
> stripped from copies that aren't processed through Mailman.
> 
> -- Larry Stone
>    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com



From gail.lists at verizon.net  Mon Sep 11 14:52:03 2006
From: gail.lists at verizon.net (Gail)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:52:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
Message-ID: <C12AD432.C5603%gail.lists@verizon.net>


My experience with AOL, unrelated to Mailman, maybe of more help.  Almost
without exception is all part of AOL's misguided attempts to block SPAM.  I
doubt its a Mailman issue, even the POS we're going to replace with Mailman
hasn't been the cause of issues with AOL.  Usually this has happened when
the level of security the user has on their account is higher which will
sometimes makes AOL trash the mail.  Perhaps your sign up instructions
should include instruction to those signing up  to add the list address to
their address book, or white list at AOL which might help.

Also, you should check to see if AOL has black listed your domain and if so,
apply for white list status which is annoying and time consuming but usually
gets done rather quickly.  Save that application as they'll periodically
black list you again for no apparent reason.  Also make sure your ISP has
assigned a static IP address to your list, AOL and a number of other ISPs
tend to block mail from a variable IP address.  Even if you've had a static
one, check again as my ISP running the list on has, from time to time,
reverted it back to variable for no apparent reasons.

I wish I only had 5 to 10 with AOL, I've got over 1000 and all write
complaining when their mail doesn't arrive!

HTH
Gail


> Sure, they simply do not receive invitations to join that have been sent out.
> Note, I am working on a small sample here -  there are 5-10 affected people.
> However, no-one else (outside AOL) has had this kind of problem.  I assume
> also that the 'evictions' issue is also relevant, but I don't know.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jon
> 



From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Mon Sep 11 14:59:44 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:59:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Security Bulletin
Message-ID: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

There was a CIAC bulletin last week pertaining to Mailman:

            __________________________________________________________

                       The U.S. Department of Energy
                   Computer Incident Advisory Capability
                           ___  __ __    _     ___
                          /       |     /_\   /
                          \___  __|__  /   \  \___
             __________________________________________________________

                             INFORMATION BULLETIN

                            Mailman Security Update
                          [Red Hat RHSA-2006:0600-11]

September 7, 2006 17:00 GMT                                       Number Q-305
______________________________________________________________________________
PROBLEM:       There are several security vulnerabilities in Mailman: 
               1) A flaw was found in the way Mailman handled MIME multipart 
                  messages; and 
			   2) Several cross-site scripting (XSS) issues were found in Mailman. 
PLATFORM:      Red Hat Desktop (v. 3 & v. 4) 
               Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS, ES, WS (v. 3 & v. 4) 
DAMAGE:        1) An attacker could send a carefully crafted MIME multipart 
               email message to a mailing list run by Mailman which caused 
               that particular mailing list to stop working; and 2) An 
               attacker could exploit these issues to perform cross-site 
               scripting attacks against the Mailman administrator. 
SOLUTION:      Upgrade to the appropriate version. 
______________________________________________________________________________
VULNERABILITY  The risk is LOW. 1) An attacker could send a carefully crafted 
ASSESSMENT:    MIME multipart email message to a mailing list run by Mailman 
               which caused that particular mailing list to stop working; and 
               2) An attacker could exploit these issues to perform cross-site 
               scripting attacks against the Mailman administrator. 
______________________________________________________________________________
LINKS: 
 CIAC BULLETIN:      http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletins/q-305.shtml 
 ORIGINAL BULLETIN:  Red Hat RHSA-2006:0600-11
                     https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2006-0600.html 
 CVE:                http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name= 
                     CVE-2006-2941 CVE-2006-3636 
______________________________________________________________________________


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Version: 4.0 Business Edition

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FpvHgrwmO38sKPvh0tuMoET92A7WBxsZ6RGnVw6Ck6lDttVBFoZiu0RM0gDAKsnZ
/DnCz3pYvss=
=DBSM
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This bulletin only mentions Red Hat.  Does the bulletin apply only
to Red Hat distributions, or does it apply to all Mailman distributions?
The links mention 

     mailman-2.1.5.1-25.rhel3.7.src.rpm

Is this a problem that only affects 2.1.5, or does it affect subsequent
versions of Mailman?  Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From justbrits at comcast.net  Mon Sep 11 16:24:39 2006
From: justbrits at comcast.net (JB@comcast)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:24:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
References: <C12AD432.C5603%gail.lists@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c6d5ae$045939e0$6701a8c0@actualshop>

<<I wish I only had 5 to 10 with AOL, I've got over 1000 and all write
complaining when their mail doesn't arrive!>>

I've only a couple dozen on 7 Lists and they SCREAM, Gail!!  -:)

AOL = PITA

Ed

From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 16:32:54 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:32:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
Message-ID: <20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 12:04:31PM +0400, Oleg Dambaev wrote:
> >   
> echo "mailman:*:92:" >> /etc/group
> 
> replace ``92'' with needed groupid

I sould preface this by saying it is 99% certain that all my mailman problems are due to NetBSD's pkgsrc being completely fubar, and I mean ALL of pkgsrc. I should prolly compile mailman outside of pkgsrc.

Thanks but I did have a mailman group and mailman user and the mailman package was compiled with:

MAILMAN_USER?=          mailman
MAILMAN_GROUP?=         mailman
MAILMAN_MAILGROUP?=     guest # group of user 'daemon'

I added:

MAILMAN_USER = 'mailman'
MAILMAN_GROUP= 'mailman'

to mm_cfg.py to fix the mailmanctl/daemon issue.

When I try try to accept an invitation to a group I get this bounce message:

<mung-request at pigeonnier.org>: Command died with status 2:
    "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request mung". Command output: Group
    mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed
+as
    group "guest", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as
    group "mailman".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as
+group
    "guest", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option
    `--with-mail-gid=mailman'.


From theall at tifaware.com  Mon Sep 11 16:10:36 2006
From: theall at tifaware.com (George A. Theall)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:10:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Security Bulletin
In-Reply-To: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <20060911141036.GC9445@tifaware.com>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 07:59:44AM -0500, Barry Finkel wrote:

> This bulletin only mentions Red Hat.  Does the bulletin apply only
> to Red Hat distributions, or does it apply to all Mailman distributions?

The general Mailman distribution is affected as well; see:

http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=444295&group_id=103

> Is this a problem that only affects 2.1.5, or does it affect subsequent
> versions of Mailman?  Thanks.

If you have access to Nessus, you may want to take a look at a plugin
I wrote to check for the first issue mentioned:

  http://www.nessus.org/plugins/index.php?view=single&id=22307

[The plugin is available now to those with a direct feed and will become
available tomorrow for those with a registered feed.] I run a few lists
with 2.1.6 and that version is definitely vulnerable. 


George
-- 
theall at tifaware.com
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From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep 11 18:12:13 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:12:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternate SMTP setup
Message-ID: <20060911161213.69397.qmail@web82414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In an effort to further tuneup/speedup the list deliveries (being choked again today), I have used the method below about an alternate smtp for mailman's use. However, I have yet to see any packets go through port 1313.
   
  My posting lists are not huge, each under 1000.
   
  Sockstats shows that port is assigned to 127.0.0.1 okay, and the processes show the added instance of sendmail running okay. What did I miss?
   
  Here is my setup im mm_cfg.py:
  # Tuning stuff
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10
QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(20)
QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = hours(2)
QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 50000
  # define alternate SMTP port
SMTPPORT = 1313
   
  Running MM-2.8x/FBSD-6.1/Sendmail-8.13.6

        /usr/sbin/sendmail -bd -ODeliveryMode=defer \                 -ODaemonPortOptions=Name=MSA,Port=NNNN,M=E,Addr=127.0.0.1  

    Where NNNN is some port number not otherwise used (you can test       if something's in use by doing "telnet localhost NNNN" -- if it's      refused, there's no daemon listening)  

    This sets up a sendmail process listening to the alternate port,       in DEFER mode, but set to talk only to the localhost interface,       so it's not accessible by anyoneother than your local machine:       no open relay problems.  

    To make mailman access that port, add this to your mm_cfg.py:  

        # define alternate SMTP port          SMTPPORT = 1313


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From tmz at pobox.com  Mon Sep 11 18:31:21 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:31:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
	<20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
Message-ID: <20060911163121.GC1153@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Matt Herzog wrote:
> When I try try to accept an invitation to a group I get this bounce message:
> 
> <mung-request at pigeonnier.org>: Command died with status 2:
>     "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request mung". Command
>     output: Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper
>     script to be executed as group "guest", but the system's mail
>     server executed the mail script as group "mailman".  Try
>     tweaking the mail server to run the script as group "guest", or
>     re-run configure,  providing the command line option
>     `--with-mail-gid=mailman'.

You're using postfix, correct?  Do you have MTA='Postfix' in
mm_cfg.py?  If not, that's the best way to integrate mailman and
postfix, IMO.  Once that's done, you should check that the permissions
are correct for the alias files ($PREFIX/data/aliases{,.db}).  They
should be owner and group mailman and group writable.

See the mailman installation manual for more details:

    http://mailman.sourceforge.net/mailman-install/node13.html

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Good judgment comes with experience.  Unfortunately, the experience
usually comes from bad judgment.

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From msh at pigeonier.org  Mon Sep 11 19:20:51 2006
From: msh at pigeonier.org (Matt Herzog)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:20:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <20060911163121.GC1153@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
	<20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<20060911163121.GC1153@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <20060911172051.GK8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 12:31:21PM -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Matt Herzog wrote:
> > When I try try to accept an invitation to a group I get this bounce message:
> > 
> > <mung-request at pigeonnier.org>: Command died with status 2:
> >     "/usr/pkg/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request mung". Command
> >     output: Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper
> >     script to be executed as group "guest", but the system's mail
> >     server executed the mail script as group "mailman".  Try
> >     tweaking the mail server to run the script as group "guest", or
> >     re-run configure,  providing the command line option
> >     `--with-mail-gid=mailman'.
> 
> You're using postfix, correct?  Do you have MTA='Postfix' in
> mm_cfg.py?  If not, that's the best way to integrate mailman and
> postfix, IMO.  Once that's done, you should check that the permissions
> are correct for the alias files ($PREFIX/data/aliases{,.db}).  They
> should be owner and group mailman and group writable.

Not exactly. I have 

MTA = "Postfix"

in mm_cfg.py. Do the spaces matter?

As for the aliases dir I have:

-rw-r-----  1 root     mailman     41 Sep 10 17:51 adm.pw
-rw-rw----  1 root     mailman   1922 Sep 11 10:53 aliases
-rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman  65536 Sep 11 10:53 aliases.db
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman      6 Sep 11 10:50 master-qrunner.pid

Something keeps changing the ownership of the aliases file to root.
I had chowned it to mailman:mailman earlier today.

While trying to remember what "mailwrapper" represents I read "man mailwrapper" and realized that /usr/sbin/sendmail is supposed to be a symlink to /usr/sbin/mailwrapper, and it was not. It was a link to /usr/libexec/postfix/sendmail. Ack. 

Well that didn't solve the problem either.

By the way, do I need to run 'mailmanctl restart' every time I make a change in mmm_cfg.py?


> See the mailman installation manual for more details:
> 
>     http://mailman.sourceforge.net/mailman-install/node13.html

I have been all over this page and site. The problem is with the NetBSD package build I'm thinking.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep 11 19:12:58 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:12:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Security Bulletin
In-Reply-To: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200609111259.k8BCxiFC027108@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <p06240508c12b495774be@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:59 AM -0500 2006-09-11, Barry Finkel wrote:

>  There was a CIAC bulletin last week pertaining to Mailman:

Which is part of why we're working on release version 2.1.9 as 
quickly as possible.  Version 2.1.9rc1 is already out, and we're 
already running it at python.org (the home of all official 
Mailman-related mailing lists, as well as many others having to do 
with Python and Python-related projects).

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep 11 19:15:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:15:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternate SMTP setup
In-Reply-To: <20060911161213.69397.qmail@web82414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060911161213.69397.qmail@web82414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240509c12b49e2953f@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:12 AM -0700 2006-09-11, Jack Stone wrote:

>  In an effort to further tuneup/speedup the list deliveries (being choked
>  again today), I have used the method below about an alternate smtp for
>  mailman's use. However, I have yet to see any packets go through port 1313.

What is in the logs?  Did you stop and restart Mailman?  Did you make 
sure that all anti-virus/anti-spam processing is turned off in this 
second MTA instance?  Did you also make sure that they turn off all 
reverse DNS checks?

This technique has been in wide use, so without more information on 
what errors are showing up on your side, it's impossible to tell what 
may have happened.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep 11 19:20:43 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:20:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
In-Reply-To: <C12AD432.C5603%gail.lists@verizon.net>
References: <C12AD432.C5603%gail.lists@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <p0624050ac12b4a62b335@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:52 AM -0400 2006-09-11, Gail wrote:

>  My experience with AOL, unrelated to Mailman, maybe of more help.  Almost
>  without exception is all part of AOL's misguided attempts to block SPAM.

Correct.  Why is why I wrote FAQ 3.42.  I should know, since I was 
the first Internet mail operations person they ever hired, and when I 
left I was the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator.  At that time, I was 
probably doing more anti-spam work than most anyone else on the 
planet, and I made a point of contributing my work back to the 
community.

Part of the reason I left was that management (and the developers) 
had decided that they wanted to go with a 100% proprietary solution 
for gatewaying e-mail into the service, and not a single person on 
the Internet Mail Operations team really wanted to be involved in 
that.  One guy stayed, and the rest left in one way or another. 
$DEITY only knows what kind of crap they did once they got rid of all 
the people who really understood how this kind of system should be 
run.


The real problem is that most people can't be bothered to read the 
FAQ or search the archives.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Sep 11 19:35:37 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:35:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <20060911172051.GK8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
References: <20060911021302.GF8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<4505188F.9090004@ipchains.ru>
	<20060911143254.GI8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
	<20060911163121.GC1153@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<20060911172051.GK8271@mail.pigeonnier.org>
Message-ID: <p0624050bc12b4d5a6571@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:20 PM -0400 2006-09-11, Matt Herzog wrote:

>  Not exactly. I have
>
>  MTA = "Postfix"
>
>  in mm_cfg.py. Do the spaces matter?

In this case, I don't think that the spaces will be a problem 
(although Python does normally care a great deal about spacing), but 
the double versus single quotes may be something that Python cares 
about.

>  Something keeps changing the ownership of the aliases file to root.
>  I had chowned it to mailman:mailman earlier today.

Probably a cron job, or some other command that you're using which 
has effects other than the ones you expect.  Take a look at the 
"newaliases" command, and make sure it points to the postfix program 
it should.  Also make sure that your aliases and alias databases are 
set up correctly in your main.cf.

>  By the way, do I need to run 'mailmanctl restart' every time I make a
>  change in mmm_cfg.py?

Yes.  IIRC, this is well documented.

>  I have been all over this page and site. The problem is with the
>  NetBSD package build I'm thinking.

You may want to try doing a manual install from our latest sources, 
instead of depending on their package.  Sometimes the package 
maintainers get everything right, sometimes they don't.

But, when you come to us for assistance with whatever problems you've 
got, we're not likely to be able to help you with problems caused by 
the package maintainer, and it may be difficult to tell which 
problems come from where.  So, when you're using a packaged version, 
you should always go to your OS support facilities first (which may 
be directly to the package maintainer) and only once you have 
confirmed that the problems are within Mailman itself and not a 
result of the work done by the package maintainer, should you then 
come here.

We have this problem with cPanel, Plesk and Apple all the time.  We 
tend to have fewer problems with other package providers (e.g., Red 
Hat, FreeBSD, etc...), but the issues are largely the same.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From antennex at swbell.net  Mon Sep 11 19:54:36 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternate SMTP setup
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c12b49e2953f@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060911175436.16942.qmail@web82415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:    At 9:12 AM -0700 2006-09-11, Jack Stone wrote:

> In an effort to further tuneup/speedup the list deliveries (being choked
> again today), I have used the method below about an alternate smtp for
> mailman's use. However, I have yet to see any packets go through port 1313.

What is in the logs? Did you stop and restart Mailman? Did you make 
sure that all anti-virus/anti-spam processing is turned off in this 
second MTA instance? Did you also make sure that they turn off all 
reverse DNS checks?

This technique has been in wide use, so without more information on 
what errors are showing up on your side, it's impossible to tell what 
may have happened.

  <JLS> ---->
  1) Yes, restarted Mailman
  2) anti-spam - Trusted networks are ignored in/out -- not sure about ClamAV, but will look.
  3) Have caching DNS on this server
  4) Have been looking at all logs for errors - none found, except the firewall logs show no packets -- ipsumdump -- no packets to port 1313
   
  Did all of the above before posting for help. Also, looked at the FAQ several times.
   
  Further, have been searching for ways to add more subdir for the mail/spool -- not luck there so far in my search at sendmail, etc.
   
  Still see 10 xxxxx.pck's in the ~mailman/qfiles/out
   
  The ones older than 3 hours finally gone, but some still an hour old.
   
  BTW: Another thing is that in the FAQ I see a long analysis about setting SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10 to SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 5 max.
   
  I'm using 10, but do have numerous "big gorillas" like Yahoo, Hotmail, msn, aol, etc. -- a high ratio of those.


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Mon Sep 11 19:58:40 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:58:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] a few details
In-Reply-To: <p0624050bc12b4d5a6571@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C12AF1E0.E8BF%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 9/11/06 10:35 AM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> At 1:20 PM -0400 2006-09-11, Matt Herzog wrote:
> 
>>  Not exactly. I have
>> 
>>  MTA = "Postfix"
>> 
>>  in mm_cfg.py. Do the spaces matter?
> 
> In this case, I don't think that the spaces will be a problem
> (although Python does normally care a great deal about spacing), but
> the double versus single quotes may be something that Python cares
> about.

The spaces (or lack thereof) around the = do not matter in Python.  (My
habit is to use them; which conflicts with my (necessary) habit not to use
them in shell scripts.)

There is no difference in Python between a string in "double" quotes and one
in 'single' quotes, except that the former can easily contain ' characters
and the latter can easily contain " characters.  (Got that one by the
grammar checker.  ;-))  As in "This doesn't cause problems."  In this area,
Python is quite different from, for example, Perl and Ruby.

  --John




From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep 11 23:15:42 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:15:42 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
In-Reply-To: <p0624050ac12b4a62b335@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060911211542.13898.qmail@web25715.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Brad - apologies for not getting the point from the FAQ first.  

Thanks for being willing to repeat yourself anyway.  I'm going to advise folks to register for a different address.  Very interesting to see your background with AOL.

Thanks again, and to Gail,

Jon

----- Original Message ----
From: Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
To: Gail <gail.lists at verizon.net>; mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Monday, 11 September, 2006 6:20:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL

At 8:52 AM -0400 2006-09-11, Gail wrote:

>  My experience with AOL, unrelated to Mailman, maybe of more help.  Almost
>  without exception is all part of AOL's misguided attempts to block SPAM.

Correct.  Why is why I wrote FAQ 3.42.  I should know, since I was 
the first Internet mail operations person they ever hired, and when I 
left I was the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator.  At that time, I was 
probably doing more anti-spam work than most anyone else on the 
planet, and I made a point of contributing my work back to the 
community.

Part of the reason I left was that management (and the developers) 
had decided that they wanted to go with a 100% proprietary solution 
for gatewaying e-mail into the service, and not a single person on 
the Internet Mail Operations team really wanted to be involved in 
that.  One guy stayed, and the rest left in one way or another. 
$DEITY only knows what kind of crap they did once they got rid of all 
the people who really understood how this kind of system should be 
run.


The real problem is that most people can't be bothered to read the 
FAQ or search the archives.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jjloose%40yahoo.co.uk

Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp





From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Tue Sep 12 01:01:56 2006
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 00:01:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman integration with web pages (user passwords)
Message-ID: <20060911230156.GH31649@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

Hi,

I wish to integrate mailman with some (other) web pages. The users
would be able to login and do whatever, part of which would be to subscribe to
a mail list.

To make it nice I would like a common user authentication, ie email_address/password
pairs. Mailman seems to hold this stuff in python pickle files - these are obscure
formats if you are not writing in python (which I am not - I don't want to).

Question:

* can mailman store email/password elsewhere (eg mysql database), possibly
  in addition to pickle files ?

* can mailman use email/password info from somewhere other than a pickle file ?

* are there hooks that I can plug an external script in to when user info
  is updated (added/removed/changed) that would let me keep/copy this info
  elsewhere ?

I use mailman in other places, it works well & am pleased with it.

Cheers

-- 
Alain Williams
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd.
Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/

#include <std_disclaimer.h>


From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Tue Sep 12 03:27:41 2006
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:27:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman integration with web pages (user
	passwords)
In-Reply-To: <20060911230156.GH31649@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
References: <20060911230156.GH31649@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <45060D0D.9010300@wingfoot.org>

Alain Williams said the following on 9/11/2006 7:01 PM:
> I wish to integrate mailman with some (other) web pages. The users
> would be able to login and do whatever, part of which would be to subscribe to
> a mail list.
> 
> To make it nice I would like a common user authentication, ie email_address/password
> pairs. Mailman seems to hold this stuff in python pickle files - these are obscure
> formats if you are not writing in python (which I am not - I don't want to).

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.007.htp

That might give you somewhere to start, I hope.. :)

Best,
--Glenn




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep 12 03:15:13 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:15:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternate SMTP setup
In-Reply-To: <20060911175436.16942.qmail@web82415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060911175436.16942.qmail@web82415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c12bb98ec1ce@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:54 AM -0700 2006-09-11, Jack Stone wrote:

>   4) Have been looking at all logs for errors - none found, except the
>  firewall logs show no packets -- ipsumdump -- no packets to port 1313

There's got to be something in the Mailman and MTA logs.  If not, 
then the configuration was not changed (as you thought you had done).

>   Did all of the above before posting for help. Also, looked at the FAQ
>  several times.

Much appreciated.

>   Further, have been searching for ways to add more subdir for the
>  mail/spool -- not luck there so far in my search at sendmail, etc.

If you want to create additional mail queue subdirectories under 
sendmail, that's a standard thing with the later versions and should 
definitely be described in their documentation.  You don't have to 
worry about this with postfix, since it does that by default 
out-of-the-box.

>   BTW: Another thing is that in the FAQ I see a long analysis about
>  setting SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10 to SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 5 max.

Yup.

>   I'm using 10, but do have numerous "big gorillas" like Yahoo, Hotmail,
>  msn, aol, etc. -- a high ratio of those.

This may or may not make a difference for you.  IIRC, the big point 
of the articles by Chuq were in response to questions about VERP and 
personalization, and going from something like SMTP_MAX_RECIPIENTS=10 
down to SMTP_MAX_RECIPIENTS=1 (e.g., enabling VERP and/or 
personalization).

And Chuq is working from data on some of the biggest known Mailman 
mailing lists, so I'd have very good reason to believe his numbers.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep 12 03:17:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:17:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
In-Reply-To: <20060911211542.13898.qmail@web25715.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060911211542.13898.qmail@web25715.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c12bbab1061b@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:15 PM +0000 2006-09-11, Jon Loose wrote:

>  Brad - apologies for not getting the point from the FAQ first.

Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine.  ;)

>  Thanks for being willing to repeat yourself anyway.  I'm going to advise
>  folks to register for a different address.  Very interesting to see your
>  background with AOL.

Hey, we're having problems with AOL ourselves on python.org, for the 
Mailman-related mailing lists as well as the others.  The AOL 
whitelisting process is a pain to go through, and it doesn't work 
very well.

Anyway, welcome to the club!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep 12 03:20:41 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:20:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman integration with web pages (user
 passwords)
In-Reply-To: <20060911230156.GH31649@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
References: <20060911230156.GH31649@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <p06240502c12bbb141d3f@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:01 AM +0100 2006-09-12, Alain Williams wrote:

>  * can mailman store email/password elsewhere (eg mysql database), possibly
>   in addition to pickle files ?

There is an unofficial patch to allow a MySQL MemberAdapter, yes. 
But it will take some work to set up, as well as to configure the 
MySQL database to support it.  And since it's an unofficial patch, 
although I believe that the author is on this list and you're welcome 
to ask questions here about it, there's a very small group within the 
broader Mailman community that actually uses this feature, and that 
means that there's not nearly as much support that you can get from 
the rest of the community.

>  * can mailman use email/password info from somewhere other than a pickle
>  file ?

Through the MySQL MemberAdapter, yes.

>  * are there hooks that I can plug an external script in to when user info
>   is updated (added/removed/changed) that would let me keep/copy this info
>   elsewhere ?

You could write a custom handler, I guess.  Try searching the FAQ 
wizard for "handler".


In any event, I think you're looking at needing to make some source 
code modifications to get all this stuff to work together.

We're hoping to improve the situation with the next major release 
(Mailman 2.2), but I don't know what the schedule is for that code.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From katir at hindu.org  Tue Sep 12 05:12:54 2006
From: katir at hindu.org (Sivakatirswami)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 17:12:54 -1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Footer On HTML Info and Subscription Results
	pages
Message-ID: <450625B6.7070102@hindu.org>

I have completely customized the  list info page and subscription 
results page
by basically install our own complete HTML code with inline CSS

using the mail man web Admin GUI for editing the html pages. Basically I 
just
removed most of  the mail main includes and install raw source code. It 
works.

check it out here:

http://lists.jnanadana.com/mailman/listinfo/kural

the final bit is to customize the footer.

Where in the source code folder does one find the
template text that is used for this mailman SSI (include)?

<MM-Mailman-Footer>

in other words i would like to customize this code:

<hr><address><a 
href="http://lists.jnanadana.com/mailman/listinfo/kural">Kural</a> list 
run by <a href="mailto:kural-owner at jnanadana.com">listmaster at 
jnanadana.org</a><br><a 
href="http://lists.jnanadana.com/mailman/admin/kural">Kural 
administrative interface</a> (requires authorization)<br><a 
href="http://lists.jnanadana.com/mailman/listinfo">Overview of all 
jnanadana.com mailing lists</a><p>

<table WIDTH="100%" BORDER="0">
   <tr>
     <td><img src="/icons/mailman.jpg" alt="Delivered by Mailman" 
border=0><br>version 2.1.5</td>
     <td><img src="/icons/PythonPowered.png" alt="Python Powered" 
border=0></td>
     <td><img src="/icons/gnu-head-tiny.jpg" alt="GNU's Not Unix" 
border=0></td>
   </tr>
</table>
</address>

of course I *can* simply delete the SSI  ("<MM-Mailman-Footer>" ) from 
the page and install
my own footer code, but I want to not totally hack up this thing if I 
can find the source inthe mailman folders.

I looked thru the FAQs and I'm afraid my last solution may be the only 
one as I don't want to
dig into messing with the Python Source if this footer is generated from 
source and not  piping
in a cat of an editable template file.

Om shanti
(In  Peace)

Sivakatirswami
www.himalayanacademy.com

Get Hinduism Today Digital Edition. It's Free!
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/digital/


From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 12 09:34:53 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 07:34:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c12bbab1061b@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <20060912073453.83242.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Incidentally, one issue that I can't find in the FAQ/Archives relates to the 'eviction' notices showing up when I dump pending.pck.  Any light that could be thrown on these would be appreciated.

Jon

----- Original Message ----
From: Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
To: Jon Loose <jjloose at yahoo.co.uk>; Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>; Gail <gail.lists at verizon.net>; mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Tuesday, 12 September, 2006 2:17:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL

At 9:15 PM +0000 2006-09-11, Jon Loose wrote:

>  Brad - apologies for not getting the point from the FAQ first.

Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine.  ;)

>  Thanks for being willing to repeat yourself anyway.  I'm going to advise
>  folks to register for a different address.  Very interesting to see your
>  background with AOL.

Hey, we're having problems with AOL ourselves on python.org, for the 
Mailman-related mailing lists as well as the others.  The AOL 
whitelisting process is a pain to go through, and it doesn't work 
very well.

Anyway, welcome to the club!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.





From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep 12 10:13:47 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:13:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security / AOL
In-Reply-To: <20060912073453.83242.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060912073453.83242.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c12c1c96e06e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:34 AM +0000 2006-09-12, Jon Loose wrote:

>  Incidentally, one issue that I can't find in the FAQ/Archives relates
>  to the 'eviction' notices showing up when I dump pending.pck.  Any light
>  that could be thrown on these would be appreciated.

Sorry, this is the first I've heard of them.  That's why I didn't 
mention anything previously.

Maybe someone with more experience in this area can speak up?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com  Tue Sep 12 19:57:01 2006
From: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com (Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:57:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages
In-Reply-To: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F5C0@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
Message-ID: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F5CC@farquaad.us.omicron.at>

Hi Brad, Sorry to bother again.  We have looked through the Defaults.py and
perform searches on the Internet and tried different options in the
mm_cfg.py, including the one in the
http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node36.html.  We are still getting the
generic subject line (confirm aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c) for
list subscription confirmation email. 

We have compared the Email confirmation message between our list using
Mailman 2.1.5 and the Mailman-Users list using Mailman 2.1.9rc1 and noticed
that the only difference is the "From:" and "Reply-To:" are not subsituted
with the confirm address and cookie but instead have the request address
(please see below).  Apparently, this is working on Mailman-users list, can
you send me the mm_cfg.py and defaults.py so I can see if there is something
we are missing (of course, I understand there may be some differences in
them due to newer version).  

Several questions we also have are: 
1. Does Mailman automatically subsitute the "Subject:" with a friendly one
when VERP_CONFIRMATIONS is set to Yes.  
2. Where does Mailman get the friendly subject line?
3. Is there something special we need to set in the Qmail configuration?

If anyone else have any suggestions, please advise.  Thanks.

==========================
From:
mailman-users-confirm+88318d6ca653d8e6b2c5b66a3d1fed1f6a82ee88 at python.org
Subject: Your confirmation is required to join the Mailman-Users mailing
list
Reply-To:
mailman-users-confirm+88318d6ca653d8e6b2c5b66a3d1fed1f6a82ee88 at python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9rc1

From: labtips-newsletter-request at omicron-lab.com
Subject: confirm aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c
Reply-To: labtips-newsletter-request at omicron-lab.com
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5

Sincerely,
Jimmy

-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+jimmy.do=omicron-lab.com at python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+jimmy.do=omicron-lab.com at python.org] On Behalf
Of Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 3:45 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Cc: 'Brad Knowles'
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages


Hi Brad, Thanks for the reply.  We did an update of Mailman in RedHat ES 3
and now Mailman is version 2.1.5.1-25.  However, we are still getting the
generic subject line (confirm aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c) for
list subscription confirmation email.  Attached is the mm_cfg.py we used.
Can you or other Mailman experts take a quick look at it and let us know if
we are doing something wrong?  Or Are we missing some other configuration
option in the Mailman Admin GUI or elsewhere?

Many Thanks,
Jimmy

Contents of mm_cfg.py: ============================================
"""This module contains your site-specific settings.

>From a brand new distribution it should be copied to mm_cfg.py.  If you
already have an mm_cfg.py, be careful to add in only the new settings you
want.  Mailman's installation procedure will never overwrite your mm_cfg.py
file.

The complete set of distributed defaults, with documentation, are in the
file Defaults.py.  In mm_cfg.py, override only those you want to change,
after the

  from Defaults import *

line (see below).

Note that these are just default settings; many can be overridden via the
administrator and user interfaces on a per-list or per-user basis.

"""

###############################################
# Here's where we get the distributed defaults.

from Defaults import *
import pwd, grp

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.

##############################################################
#    Here's where we override shipped defaults with settings #
#    suitable for the RPM package.                           #
MAILMAN_UID = pwd.getpwnam('mailman')[2]
MAILMAN_GID = grp.getgrnam('mailman')[2]
LOG_DIR     = '/var/log/mailman'
QUEUE_DIR   = '/var/spool/mailman/qfiles'

##############################################################
#    IMPORTANT! - You must set these domain names!           #
# 
# Mailman needs to know about (at least) two fully-qualified domain # names
(fqdn) # # 1) the hostname used in your urls (DEFAULT_URL_HOST) # 2) the
hostname used in email addresses for your domain (DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST) # #
For example, if people visit your Mailman system with #
"http://www.dom.ain/mailman" then your url fqdn is "www.dom.ain", # and if
people send mail to your system via "yourlist at dom.ain" then # your email
fqdn is "dom.ain".  DEFAULT_URL_HOST controls the former, # and
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST controls the latter.  Mailman also needs to # know how to
map from one to the other (this is especially important # if you're running
with virtual domains).  You use # "add_virtualhost(urlfqdn, emailfqdn)" to
add new mappings.

DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'mm_cfg_has_not_been_edited_to_set_host_domains'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mm_cfg_has_not_been_edited_to_set_host_domains'

# Because we've overriden the virtual hosts above add_virtualhost # MUST be
called after they have been defined.

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes

add_virtualhost('mlists.xyz.com')

# Set to enable VERP-like (more user friendly) confirmations 
VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes 
VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

============================================================================
=======

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad at stop.mail-abuse.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:02 PM
To: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages


At 4:20 PM -0500 2006-09-05, <Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com> wrote:

>  Hi, Does the VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes only works on certain version
> of  Mailman? We have Mailman version 2.1.1-5, Python 3.0.4-0.1, and 
> Qmail
>  (1.03-rhel3) and have set the setting as suggested; but we are still
getting
>  the generic subject line for list subscription confirmation email.

Looking through the source, Mailman 2.1.5 mentions this option, but 
I've having trouble using Subversion to figure out precisely when 
this was introduced.  I know that the code around this option has 
changed more than once, but that's about all I can tell you right now.

I can tell you that the latest current version right now is version 
2.1.8, and 2.1.9 will be released very soon.  2.1.9rc1 is out now, 
and we're already running it on python.org.  There are some important 
security fixes coming with 2.1.9, so I highly recommend that you get 
this version for your site as soon as it is available.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jimmy.do%40omicron-lab.
com

Security Policy:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp



From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Tue Sep 12 20:09:43 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Debian/Ubuntu Mailman Package
Message-ID: <200609121809.k8CI9hGi023009@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

I have questions about Ubuntu mailman.  I am installing mailman
on an unbuntu system.  I have installed mailman on a test box while
I am waiting for the production hardware to arrive and be rack-mounted.
I wanted to install mailman 2.1.8, but the system administrator had
me install the latest Ubuntu mailman package, 2.1.5-9ubuntu4.  He
told me to check the Ubuntu change log to see what in mailman 2.1.8
is not included.  I looked at the change log, and it appears that
the Ubuntu package is synchronized with the Debian package.  I cannot
compare the information in the Ubuntu change log with the mailman
2.1.8 change log, as the mailman change numbers do not appear in the
Ubuntu change log; the Ubuntu changes seem to have their own numbers.

My question is this - what have I just installed in the Ubuntu
package?  Is it mailman at some patch level?  Is there code that
Debian or Ubuntu has added/changed from the mailman distribution?

I know that there have been recent postings concerning distributions
that modify the mailman-supplied code, and I need to know if Debian
or Ubuntu do the same.  Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep 12 20:12:27 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:12:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Line on Invite Messages
In-Reply-To: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F5CC@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
References: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F5CC@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
Message-ID: <p06240506c12ca7d1821d@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:57 PM -0500 2006-09-12, <Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com> wrote:

>  Hi Brad, Sorry to bother again.  We have looked through the Defaults.py and
>  perform searches on the Internet and tried different options in the
>  mm_cfg.py, including the one in the
>  http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node36.html.  We are still getting the
>  generic subject line (confirm aad5624d316c46234928426cb4a6c57c691d0e7c) for
>  list subscription confirmation email.

That documentation node is specific to qmail.  I don't recall -- are 
you using qmail or some other MTA?

>  Several questions we also have are:
>  1. Does Mailman automatically subsitute the "Subject:" with a friendly one
>  when VERP_CONFIRMATIONS is set to Yes.

With all the appropriate VERP and personalization stuff turned on, I 
believe it does.  But, as you've discovered, this is dependant on 
which specific version of Mailman you're using, and if you're not 
seeing this in 2.1.5, then I'd suggest you upgrade.  In fact, since 
there were security holes in 2.1.5, I'd suggest you upgrade anyway.

Recently, there have been security holes found in 2.1.8, which is why 
we're working on getting 2.1.9 out the door as quickly as possible. 
There is a 2.1.9rc1 tarball that is already available, and if you're 
going to be doing an upgrade anyway, you might as well jump to the 
latest source that is believed to be reasonably secure.

>  2. Where does Mailman get the friendly subject line?

It builds it internally.

>  3. Is there something special we need to set in the Qmail configuration?

I'm not 100% certain how all this plays out in the qmail environment, 
but I believe that at least these parts should work the same no 
matter what -- assuming you're using the right version of Mailman.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep 12 20:14:44 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:14:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Debian/Ubuntu Mailman Package
In-Reply-To: <200609121809.k8CI9hGi023009@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200609121809.k8CI9hGi023009@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <p06240507c12ca96be253@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:09 PM -0500 2006-09-12, Barry Finkel wrote:

>  My question is this - what have I just installed in the Ubuntu
>  package?  Is it mailman at some patch level?  Is there code that
>  Debian or Ubuntu has added/changed from the mailman distribution?

Dunno.  The Debian and Ubuntu package creators didn't inform us of 
what they were doing when.  Maybe you should ask them.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep 12 20:26:25 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 11:26:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Debian/Ubuntu Mailman  Package
In-Reply-To: <200609121809.k8CI9hGi023009@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200609121809.k8CI9hGi023009@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060912111936.063acc58@crimson-dragon.com>

Barry Finkel wrote:
>I have questions about Ubuntu mailman.  I am installing mailman
>on an unbuntu system.  I have installed mailman on a test box while
>I am waiting for the production hardware to arrive and be rack-mounted.
>I wanted to install mailman 2.1.8, but the system administrator had
>me install the latest Ubuntu mailman package, 2.1.5-9ubuntu4.  He
>told me to check the Ubuntu change log to see what in mailman 2.1.8
>is not included.  I looked at the change log, and it appears that
>the Ubuntu package is synchronized with the Debian package.  I cannot
>compare the information in the Ubuntu change log with the mailman
>2.1.8 change log, as the mailman change numbers do not appear in the
>Ubuntu change log; the Ubuntu changes seem to have their own numbers.
>
>My question is this - what have I just installed in the Ubuntu
>package?  Is it mailman at some patch level?  Is there code that
>Debian or Ubuntu has added/changed from the mailman distribution?
>
>I know that there have been recent postings concerning distributions
>that modify the mailman-supplied code, and I need to know if Debian
>or Ubuntu do the same.  Thanks.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Well, there are only two ways to answer your questions.

Talk to the people who create the Ubuntu distribution or take your 
source code and do a diff against the official version.

I would expect (based on the version number) that it is a 2.1.5 
version packaged for Ubuntu with whatever changes they thought were 
necessary to conform to their philosophy of how a Linux distribution 
should be laid out on disk.

Version 2.1.5 is rather old. I believe there are some security issues 
that have been fixed since that release. IMO it is a good idea to use 
the latest version to preclude as many potential issues as possible.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Tue Sep 12 21:45:06 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 14:45:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Debian/Ubuntu Mailman   Package
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Dragon <dragon@crimson-dragon.com>'
	dated: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 11:26:25 -0700
Message-ID: <200609121945.k8CJj6KT026281@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

I wrote, in part:
>>My question is this - what have I just installed in the Ubuntu
>>package?  Is it mailman at some patch level?  Is there code that
>>Debian or Ubuntu has added/changed from the mailman distribution?

And Dragon replied:
>Well, there are only two ways to answer your questions.
>
>Talk to the people who create the Ubuntu distribution or take your 
>source code and do a diff against the official version.

I am new to Ubuntu.  As far as I can tell, there is no source that
was included in the package, except

     /usr/share/doc/mailman/src/cgi-wrapper.c
     /usr/share/doc/mailman/src/mail-wrapper.c
     /usr/share/doc/mailman/src/vsnprintf.c
     /usr/share/doc/mailman/src/common.c.gz

I will have to check with the system administrator, who knows more
about Ubuntu than I.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From dellsworth at insightbb.com  Tue Sep 12 21:52:01 2006
From: dellsworth at insightbb.com (David Ellsworth)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:52:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML sent to MM 2.1.5 breaking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0609081329370.15703@albion.stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <C12C8821.169E9%dellsworth@insightbb.com>

Pardon the repetition, but I'm asking this question again since nobody could
remember the first time around. :-)

I can send a formatted HTML email to Mailman 2.1.5 but it breaks.
The text is centered and the top graphic (which is correctly linked) isn't
showing up. I'm not even using any settings in Content Filtering. Is there
any other Mailman-specific settings for allowing HTML?

The file I'm using is here (the email should arrive looking like this):

http://www.circlecitysports.com/newsletter/ccsnews.html

But instead, it arrives looking like this:

http://www.circlecitysports.com/newsletter/error.html

When I send it just to myself, it formats correctly.

I'm on OSX, latest version of Entourage. The Mailman is on an xserve Tiger
server.  

Any ideas gratefully acknowledged.

Thanks

David

On 9/8/06 2:35 PM, "Larry Stone" <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, David Ellsworth wrote:
> 
>> So I tried and enter Approved: password in the header of an account's
>> options setting and it wouldn't let me add a colon. Couldn't find anything
>> in Help either. More information please?
> 
> Do what I did when testing this this morning before I sent the reply. When
> Entourage wouldn't allow me to enter a colon, I reasoned that since the
> colon is always there as a separator between the header name and the
> header value, Entourage must add it for me. I tried it on a test send to
> myself (since it's not going through Mailman, the Approved header doesn't
> get stripped*). Opened the message, looked at the header, and there it was
> with the colon as I expected.
> 
> * Just a warning that you should never CC: a message with an Approved
> header or first line to someone you don't 100% trust since it will not get
> stripped from copies that aren't processed through Mailman.
> 
> -- Larry Stone
>    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com



From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 13 09:28:23 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:28:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] odd error with archive(?) and processing of mail
 cc'd to list with PDF attachement
Message-ID: <4507B317.4050407@hivemind.net>

Setup: Debian AMD64 (mixed testing/stable)
        Exim 4.62 (exim-daemon-heavy)
        Mailman 2.1.8 compiled from source, non-std debian policy install
        Per domain independent installation of mailman in
          /var/virtual/$domain/mailman/...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to exim's logs a message sent out on 3/09/2006 was accepted, 
delivered to two offsite recipients with a local list in an independent 
mailman install for an exim virtual domain.

The message is plain text with a PDF attachment (letters, space and 
underscores in filename), sender uses authenticated SMTP and our exim logs 
are rather verbose in this regard. They show exim accepting the message, 
delivering offsite but no delivery to Mailman. Additionally Mailman logs 
only what what is included below for the same time period.

The critical issue was proving the message was sent [done] but a more 
concerning issue is why it didn't reach Mailman at all.

  Require_explicit_destination is OFF
  Maximum_num_recipients is 50
  Mail headers: TO: address1 at domain, address2 at domain
                CC: listname at mmdomain
                FROM: us at ourdomain
                REPLY-TO: listname at mmdomain

The logs below seem greek to me so any assistance in figuring out what they 
mean would be appreciated.
(I promise I won't give the 3rd degree at to rationale - <chuckles>)

I'm afraid I don't know what I'm looking for otherwise FAQ & Google would be 
more useful. Other messages with PDF attachments go through fine to other 
domains and with variations -- just not repeat tries of this same instance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are the logs from "/var/virtual/$domain/mailman/logs/error"
["/var/virtual/$domain/mailman" = MMHOME for brevity]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sep 03 13:52:07 2006 qrunner(4093): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", 
line 337, in decode_params
Sep 03 13:52:07 2006 qrunner(4093): charset, language, value = 
decode_rfc2231(EMPTYSTRING.join(value))
Sep 03 13:52:07 2006 qrunner(4093): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", 
line 284, in decode_rfc2231
Sep 03 13:52:07 2006 qrunner(4093): charset, language, s = parts
Sep 03 13:52:07 2006 qrunner(4093): ValueError :  unpack list of wrong size
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): Traceback (most recent call last):
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/bin/qrunner", line 278, in?
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): main()
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/bin/qrunner", line 238, in main
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): qrunner.run()
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", 
line 70, in run
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): filecnt = self._oneloop()
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", 
line 99, in _oneloop
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File 
"MMHOME/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 151, in dequeue
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): msg = email.message_from_string(msg, 
Message.Message)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File 
"MMHOME/pythonlib/email/__init__.py", line 51, in message_from_string
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): return Parser(_class, 
strict=strict).parsestr(s)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", 
line 75, in parsestr
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): return self.parse(StringIO(text), 
headersonly=headersonly)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", 
line 64, in parse
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): self._parsebody(root, fp, firstbodyline)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", 
line 240, in _parsebody
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): msgobj = self.parsestr(part)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", 
line 75, in parsestr
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): return self.parse(StringIO(text), 
headersonly=headersonly)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", 
line 64, in parse
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): self._parsebody(root, fp, firstbodyline)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", 
line 146, in _parsebody
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): boundary = container.get_boundary()
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Message.py", 
line 762, in get_boundary
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): boundary = self.get_param('boundary', 
missing)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File"MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Message.py", 
line 616, in get_param
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): for k, v in 
self._get_params_preserve(failobj, header):
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File 
"MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Message.py", line 563, in _get_params_preserve
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): params = Utils.decode_params(params)
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", 
line 337, in decode_params
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): charset, language, value = 
decode_rfc2231(EMPTYSTRING.join(value))
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", 
line 284, in decode_rfc2231
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): charset, language, s = parts
Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): ValueError :  unpack list of wrong size
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

thanks in advance

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Solitary trees, if they grow at all, grow strong." - Sir Winston Churchill


From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 13 09:40:48 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:40:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] odd error with archive(?) and processing of
 mail cc'd to list with PDF attachement
In-Reply-To: <4507B317.4050407@hivemind.net>
References: <4507B317.4050407@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <4507B600.4020407@hivemind.net>

Bretton Vine said the following on 2006/09/13 09:28 AM:
> Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): charset, language, value = 
> decode_rfc2231(EMPTYSTRING.join(value))
> Sep 03 13:52:25 2006 qrunner(7888): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", 
> line 284, in decode_rfc2231

http://rfc.net/rfc2231.html gives me an idea of possible problems but no 
solutions.


-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you 
end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato


From hjb at pollux.franken.de  Wed Sep 13 12:58:53 2006
From: hjb at pollux.franken.de (Hans-Juergen Beie)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:58:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>

Am Do, 7.09.2006, 15:57, schrieb M?rio Filipe:
> Hello
>
> I have two problems with digests, and maybe you can help me:
>
> - on one mailing list some users complain that they don't get their own
> posts when they get the digest. I've tried this on a test list and i get
> my posts so my question is if there is any setting which i might have
> overlooked that would cause this?
>
> - I'm using debian testing and recently some lists fail to send the
> messages. I believe it is related to character-sets and maybe python,
> but maybe some of you have a better idea. This is what I get on the
> trace:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 94, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 86, in main
>     mlist.send_digest_now()
>   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Digester.py", line 60, in
> send_digest_now
>     ToDigest.send_digests(self, mboxfp)
>   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 142, in
> send_digests
>     send_i18n_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
>   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 324, in
> send_i18n_digests
>     msg = scrubber(mlist, msg)
>   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 393, in
> process
>     replace_payload_by_text(msg, sep.join(text), charset)
>   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 175, in
> replace_payload_by_text
>     msg.set_payload(text, charset)
>   File "email/Message.py", line 218, in set_payload
>   File "email/Message.py", line 242, in set_charset
> TypeError: iso-8859-1
>
>
> Thanks
> --
>         M?rio Filipe

Same problem here :-|

hjb :-?
-- 
Hans-Juergen Beie
hjb at pollux.franken.de



From fquestie at vub.ac.be  Wed Sep 13 13:30:03 2006
From: fquestie at vub.ac.be (Frederik Questier)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:30:03 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic creation of new lists
Message-ID: <200609131330.03645.fquestie@vub.ac.be>

Hi,

for our University I want to setup automatically mailinglists for each 
course and study year (some 10.000 mailing lists).

I wonder, is something available for this aim?

I could adapt newlist to make it non-interactive
and script it with add_members,
but probably some of you did this already or have a better idea?

The setup that I have in mind/development is:

- mailman on Debian Linux with exim4
- Setup a default config for new lists in mm_cfg.py
  (drop welcome message, setup one owner, ...)
- From the database: create files with the listnames as filename and the 
email addresses as contents.
- From these filenames: create new lists with a kind of adapted newlist???
- Run add_members for each list

Who knows or has such adapted non-interactive newlist,
or has a better idea alltogether?

Thx

--
Frederik Questier
http://questier.com


From hjb at pollux.franken.de  Wed Sep 13 14:14:18 2006
From: hjb at pollux.franken.de (Hans-Juergen Beie)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:14:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>
Message-ID: <16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>

Am Mi, 13.09.2006, 12:58, schrieb Hans-Juergen Beie:
> Am Do, 7.09.2006, 15:57, schrieb M?rio Filipe:
>> Hello
>>
>> I have two problems with digests, and maybe you can help me:
>>
>> - on one mailing list some users complain that they don't get their own
>> posts when they get the digest. I've tried this on a test list and i get
>> my posts so my question is if there is any setting which i might have
>> overlooked that would cause this?
>>
>> - I'm using debian testing and recently some lists fail to send the
>> messages. I believe it is related to character-sets and maybe python,
>> but maybe some of you have a better idea. This is what I get on the
>> trace:
>>
>> Traceback (most recent call last):

[...]

>> TypeError: iso-8859-1

>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> --
>>         M?rio Filipe
>
> Same problem here :-|
>
> hjb :-?

According to
http://groups.google.de/group/linux.debian.bugs.dist/browse_frm/thread/baf737656b6d5c1b/412f8d56338e22ad?lnk=gst&q=Bug%23384016&rnum=1#412f8d56338e22ad
this is a bug in Python 2.4.
(search for "Bug#384016: I have this problem too, and it's caused by
python 2.4." with google.groups.com if the above link doesn't work)
The workaround given there seems to solve the problem temporarily.
In short:
Replace the first line in /usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests
  # ! /usr/bin/python
by
  #! /usr/bin/python2.3
if you have a Python2.3 installed.

As this problem appeared here (debian/etch, Mailman 2.1.8-2) after
upgrading Python 2.3 to 2.4 this seems to be reasonable.

hjb :-?




From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Wed Sep 13 14:45:39 2006
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:45:39 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>
Message-ID: <4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

> In short:
> Replace the first line in /usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests
>   # ! /usr/bin/python
> by
>   #! /usr/bin/python2.3
> if you have a Python2.3 installed.
> 
> As this problem appeared here (debian/etch, Mailman 2.1.8-2) after
> upgrading Python 2.3 to 2.4 this seems to be reasonable.

Hi, I want to clarify the situation.  Is this specific to debian?

Can you try these and check the email version?

$ python
Python 2.4.3 ...
 >>> import email
 >>> email.__version__
'3.0.1'
 >>> ^D
$ cd <prefix>/cron
$ python
Python 2.4.3 ...
 >>> import paths
 >>> import email
 >>> email.__version__
'2.5.7'

The email-3.0.x in Python 2.4 is not suitable for mailman.  Mailman 
2.1.8(or 9) works best with the email-2.5.7(or 8) which is the bug fix 
version of Python 2.3 library.

-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/


From perl at ipchains.ru  Wed Sep 13 15:23:44 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg Dambaev)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:23:44 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>	<16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <45080660.1020902@ipchains.ru>

Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
>> In short:
>> Replace the first line in /usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests
>>   # ! /usr/bin/python
>> by
>>   #! /usr/bin/python2.3
>> if you have a Python2.3 installed.
>>
>> As this problem appeared here (debian/etch, Mailman 2.1.8-2) after
>> upgrading Python 2.3 to 2.4 this seems to be reasonable.
>>     
>
> Hi, I want to clarify the situation.  Is this specific to debian?
>
> Can you try these and check the email version?
>
> $ python
> Python 2.4.3 ...
>  >>> import email
>  >>> email.__version__
> '3.0.1'
>  >>> ^D
> $ cd <prefix>/cron
> $ python
> Python 2.4.3 ...
>  >>> import paths
>  >>> import email
>  >>> email.__version__
> '2.5.7'
>
> The email-3.0.x in Python 2.4 is not suitable for mailman.  Mailman 
> 2.1.8(or 9) works best with the email-2.5.7(or 8) which is the bug fix 
> version of Python 2.3 library.
>
>   
# python
Python 2.4.3 (#2, Apr 25 2006, 07:14:33)
[GCC 3.4.4 [FreeBSD] 20050518] on freebsd6
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import email
 >>> email.__version__
'3.0.1'
# cd /usr/local/mailman/cron/
# python
Python 2.4.3 (#2, Apr 25 2006, 07:14:33)
[GCC 3.4.4 [FreeBSD] 20050518] on freebsd6
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import paths
 >>> import email
 >>> email.__version__
'2.5.6'
# uname -spr
FreeBSD 6.1-STABLE i386



From barry at python.org  Wed Sep 13 16:00:57 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:00:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED: Mailman 2.1.9
Message-ID: <8538763C-6FBD-49CD-A252-E1A5991F1837@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On behalf of the GNU Mailman development team, I'm please to announce  
GNU Mailman 2.1.9.  This is primarily a security and bug fix release  
and it is highly recommended that all sites upgrade to this version.   
Mailman 2.1.9 also contains support for two new languages: Arabic and  
Vietnamese.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and e- 
newsletters.  Mailman is used for all the python.org and  
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, including download links, please see:

	http://www.list.org
	http://mailman.sf.net
	http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

A more detailed change list is included below.

Enjoy,
- -Barry

2.1.9 (12-Sep-2006)

   Security

     - A malicious user could visit a specially crafted URI and  
inject an
       apparent log message into Mailman's error log which might  
induce an
       unsuspecting administrator to visit a phishing site.  This has  
been
       blocked.  Thanks to Moritz Naumann for its discovery.

     - Fixed denial of service attack which can be caused by some
       standards-breaking RFC 2231 formatted headers.  CVE-2006-2941.

     - Several cross-site scripting issues have been fixed.  Thanks  
to Moritz
       Naumann for their discovery.  CVE-2006-3636

     - Fixed an unexploitable format string vulnerability.  Discovery  
and fix
       by Karl Chen.  Analysis of non-exploitability by Martin 'Joey'  
Schulze.
       Also thanks go to Lionel Elie Mamane.  CVE-2006-2191.

   Internationalization

     - New languages: Arabic, Vietnamese.

   Bug fixes and other patches

     - Fixed Decorate.py so that characters in message header/footer  
which
       are not in the character set of the list's language are  
ignored rather
       than causing shunted messages (1507248).

     - Switchboard.py - Closed very tiny holes at the upper ends of  
queue
       slices that could result in unprocessable queue entries.   
Improved FIFO
       processing when two queue entries have the same timestamp.

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From mjnf at uevora.pt  Wed Sep 13 16:07:35 2006
From: mjnf at uevora.pt (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Filipe)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:07:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Arquives sorting problems
Message-ID: <1158156455.5263.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello

Some users of our mailing lists are complaining that when using the
archives, sorted by date, some messages are skipped when using the "Next
message" and "Previous message" links. For example:

Message 1
Message 2
Message 3
Message 4
Message 5
Message 6
Message 7
Message 8
Message 9
Message 10

What they say is that going from message 1 to 10 will skip a few of the
messages in between.

I've tried recreating the archive but it didn't work. Does any one have
a clue on what might be going on?

Thank you
-- 
        M?rio Filipe
        Servi?o de Computa??o da Universidade de ?vora
        mjnf at uevora.pt
        http://neptuno.sc.uevora.pt/~mjnf 
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Desc: Esta =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= uma parte de mensagem
	assinada digitalmente
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20060913/2e0ebc4a/attachment.pgp 

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Sep 13 16:10:06 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:10:06 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED: Mailman 2.1.9
In-Reply-To: <8538763C-6FBD-49CD-A252-E1A5991F1837@python.org>
References: <8538763C-6FBD-49CD-A252-E1A5991F1837@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060913141006.GY6362@charite.de>

* Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org>:
> On behalf of the GNU Mailman development team, I'm please to announce  
> GNU Mailman 2.1.9.  This is primarily a security and bug fix release  
> and it is highly recommended that all sites upgrade to this version.   
> Mailman 2.1.9 also contains support for two new languages: Arabic and  
> Vietnamese.
> 
> Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and e- 
> newsletters.  Mailman is used for all the python.org and  
> SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.
> 
> For more information, including download links, please see:
> 
> 	http://www.list.org


> 	http://mailman.sf.net
> 	http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

The download link on http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/download.html
pointing to http://www.list.org/mailman.tar.gz doesn't work.

The download link on http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/download.html
pointing to http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
lacks 2.1.9


-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From barry at python.org  Wed Sep 13 16:40:15 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:40:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED: Mailman 2.1.9
In-Reply-To: <20060913141006.GY6362@charite.de>
References: <8538763C-6FBD-49CD-A252-E1A5991F1837@python.org>
	<20060913141006.GY6362@charite.de>
Message-ID: <97F683C1-578A-4E1E-98E0-8FD90A115DB5@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sep 13, 2006, at 10:10 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> The download link on http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/download.html
> pointing to http://www.list.org/mailman.tar.gz doesn't work.
>
> The download link on http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/download.html
> pointing to http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
> lacks 2.1.9

Due to a recent server move and bandwidth cap, we can no longer  
provide tarball downloads from list.org.  Also, because of gnu.org's  
ftp upload procedure, it sometimes lags behind SourceForge.  Your  
best bet immediately is to get it from SF.

I've updated the download.html page to explain these issues.

Thanks,
- -Barry

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From fquestie at vub.ac.be  Wed Sep 13 17:44:47 2006
From: fquestie at vub.ac.be (Frederik Questier)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:44:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic creation of new lists
In-Reply-To: <200609131330.03645.fquestie@vub.ac.be>
References: <200609131330.03645.fquestie@vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <200609131744.47985.fquestie@vub.ac.be>

Op Wednesday 13 September 2006 13:30, schreef Frederik Questier:
> Hi,
>
> for our University I want to setup automatically mailinglists for each
> course and study year (some 10.000 mailing lists).
>
> I wonder, is something available for this aim?
>
> I could adapt newlist to make it non-interactive
> and script it with add_members,
> but probably some of you did this already or have a better idea?
>
> The setup that I have in mind/development is:
>
> - mailman on Debian Linux with exim4
> - Setup a default config for new lists in mm_cfg.py
>   (drop welcome message, setup one owner, ...)
> - From the database: create files with the listnames as filename and the
> email addresses as contents.
> - From these filenames: create new lists with a kind of adapted
> newlist???
> - Run add_members for each list 
>
> Who knows or has such adapted non-interactive newlist,
> or has a better idea alltogether?

OK, I found that newlist can be used non-interactively by supplying all it 
needs on the command line. Pretty sweet.

I guess the above described setup is the best way to go?

I'll publish a HOWTO for such automated setups when I'm ready.


--
Frederik Questier
http://questier.com


From wheakory at isu.edu  Wed Sep 13 16:46:14 2006
From: wheakory at isu.edu (Kory Wheatley)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:46:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman upgrade
Message-ID: <450819B6.8010808@isu.edu>

Can I go directly from Mailman 2.1.6 to Mailman 2.1.9 by doing the following
./configure
make install

From jay at abadata.com  Wed Sep 13 17:54:13 2006
From: jay at abadata.com (Jay Vaagen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:54:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
Message-ID: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>

How can I set mailman to use the MX record instead of localhost (or one
static address) for sending mail?

 

Thanks!

 

Jay Vaagen
Certified Technician
Abadata Computer Corporation, Inc.
 <mailto:jay at abadata.com> jay at abadata.com
Phone: 989 883 3411
Fax: 989 883 9313

 



From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 13 17:58:31 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:58:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>	<16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <45082AA7.1000301@hivemind.net>

Tokio Kikuchi said the following on 2006/09/13 02:45 PM:
> Can you try these and check the email version?
<snip>
> The email-3.0.x in Python 2.4 is not suitable for mailman.  Mailman 
> 2.1.8(or 9) works best with the email-2.5.7(or 8) which is the bug fix 
> version of Python 2.3 library.

Working under the assumption that this is related to the problem I posted 
I've upgraded python and still get a problem with certain attachments going 
to lists. Exim accepts the message, delivers to mailman and then mailman 
chokes and fails to deliver to list members

Python 2.5c1 (r25c1:51305, Aug 19 2006, 21:01:01)
[GCC 4.1.2 20060814 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-11)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import email
 >>> email.__version__
'4.0.1'
 >>>
<ctrl-D>

# cd MMHOME/cron
# python
Python 2.5c1 (r25c1:51305, Aug 19 2006, 21:01:01)
[GCC 4.1.2 20060814 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-11)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import paths
 >>> import email
 >>> email.__version__
'2.5.7'

What gives? What is odd is that some files with " ' " in the filename go to 
the list while others don't. I've tried changing characterset in mail client 
to no avail.

Apologies if I'm hijacking a thread, it's just I'm seen similar errors when 
trying to post to a list with a PDF attachment ... not directly related to 
senddigests at all (digests disabled)

I still get the following in the error log:
(edited for brevity)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", line 75, in parsestr
qrunner(18178): return self.parse(StringIO(text), headersonly=headersonly)
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", line 64, in parse
qrunner(18178): self._parsebody(root, fp, firstbodyline)
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", line 240, in _parsebody
qrunner(18178): msgobj = self.parsestr(part)
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", line 75, in parsestr
qrunner(18178): return self.parse(StringIO(text), headersonly=headersonly)
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", line 64, in parse
qrunner(18178): self._parsebody(root, fp, firstbodyline)
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Parser.py", line 146, in
_parsebody
qrunner(18178): boundary = container.get_boundary()
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Message.py", line 762, in
  get_boundary
qrunner(18178): boundary = self.get_param('boundary', missing)
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Message.py", line 616, in
  get_param
qrunner(18178): for k, v in self._get_params_preserve(failobj, header):
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Message.py", line 563, in
  _get_params_preserve
qrunner(18178): params = Utils.decode_params(params)
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", line 337, in 
decode_params
qrunner(18178): charset, language, value = 
decode_rfc2231(EMPTYSTRING.join(value))
qrunner(18178): File "MMHOME/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", line 284, in 
decode_rfc2231
qrunner(18178): charset, language, s = parts


-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different 
results." - Albert Einstein


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 18:08:59 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:08:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman upgrade
In-Reply-To: <450819B6.8010808@isu.edu>
References: <450819B6.8010808@isu.edu>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609130908u339bf705qa711e1f461a639ed@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/13/06, Kory Wheatley <wheakory at isu.edu> wrote:
> Can I go directly from Mailman 2.1.6 to Mailman 2.1.9 by doing the following
> ./configure
> make install

Yes*.

(You need to make sure you run ./configure with the same options you
ran it with originally, otherwise you might end up with duplicate
and/or incompatible code.)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From Kucerar at hhmi.org  Wed Sep 13 17:59:04 2006
From: Kucerar at hhmi.org (Kucera, Rich)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:59:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
Message-ID: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E01B614A9@hqexch3.hhmi.org>

Hello,

Looking at similar problems in the future...interesting to think about.

> We're looking at PHPlist, 

PHPList is all web-based,  isn't it?  Some clients may want to respond over
email.

> DadaMail and other packages. We need to be
> able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL

Have you dbdump-ed a list pickle?  Do you really want all that in MySQL?
What for?

> and
> with html mail (or provide that as an option, which Mailman can't
> do),

Uh,  yes it can?  Isn't that a setting in Outlook when you compose the
message?

> 
> In the best of worlds, I'd like to be able to maintain various fields
> on list members including name and source so, for example, we could
> decide to send an email to all list members from Source A and Source
> C, but not Source B, and if there are duplicates on lists A and B, of
> course send only one copy.

Why not put all members on one big list,  then put a customized filter that
checked an external database that had all the rules. The filter goes into
the python code.

> 
> Maybe that's getting into the realm of campaign software. All of our
> list members are opt-in, but they come from various sources, so I'd
> like to be able to pick sources for each mailing and essentially
> build a list each time from various criteria.

Keep those filters in the external database.  If you pick a filter for a
message,  indicate filter name somewhere in the message,  and then send,  the
custom code would ask the database for the list,  or whether a member should
get the message.  Filter management would stay in the database.  Also the
identity management issues you raise.  Don't want to jam all that into a
mailing list manager.

Just IMHO,
-R



From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Wed Sep 13 18:14:45 2006
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:14:45 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E01B614A9@hqexch3.hhmi.org>
References: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E01B614A9@hqexch3.hhmi.org>
Message-ID: <20060913161445.GU31649@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 11:59:04AM -0400, Kucera, Rich wrote:

> > DadaMail and other packages. We need to be
> > able to send up to 100,000 at a shot, announce only, use MySQL
> 
> Have you dbdump-ed a list pickle?  Do you really want all that in MySQL?
> What for?

Share some of the information with other applications, eg: name, email, password.

-- 
Alain Williams
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd.
Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/

#include <std_disclaimer.h>


From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 13 18:15:18 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:15:18 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED: Mailman 2.1.9
In-Reply-To: <8538763C-6FBD-49CD-A252-E1A5991F1837@python.org>
References: <8538763C-6FBD-49CD-A252-E1A5991F1837@python.org>
Message-ID: <45082E96.4020309@hivemind.net>

Barry Warsaw said the following on 2006/09/13 04:00 PM:
> On behalf of the GNU Mailman development team, I'm please to announce  
> GNU Mailman 2.1.9.  This is primarily a security and bug fix release  
> and it is highly recommended that all sites upgrade to this version. 

Excellent news, just one question before I upgrade (and hopefully fix some 
errors as per previous posts) -- and hopefully someone can answer here:

Will the following patch apply to 2.1.9 source?

[ 1220144 ] allow specifying another list in accept_these_nonmembers
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1220144&group_id=103&atid=300103

regards
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

NP: http://www.sylviemarks.de/mp3/radiox060906sylviemarks.mp3


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 18:19:49 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:19:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/13/06, Jay Vaagen <jay at abadata.com> wrote:
> How can I set mailman to use the MX record instead of localhost (or one
> static address) for sending mail?
I've added FAQ 4.72
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.072.htp>
as a simple answer for this.


P.S., to the list, this is the first time I've added an FAQ entry.
Please let me know if I did something wrong, or there's some way to be
more clear.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From Kucerar at hhmi.org  Wed Sep 13 19:52:06 2006
From: Kucerar at hhmi.org (Kucera, Rich)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:52:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Alternative to Mailman
Message-ID: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E01B614F1@hqexch3.hhmi.org>

> > > use MySQL
> > What for?
> 
> Share some of the information with other applications, eg: name, email,
> password.

Well if you're talking strategic SQL access, either of these (*if only* they
supported ODBC calling mechanisms) you could bolt it onto mailman and have at
it:
http://gadfly.sourceforge.net/
http://www.pythonweb.org/projects/snakesql/

You can still have at it in SQL without the calling mechanisms,  but you're
limited to command line that calls python script...maybe not so limited.

SOAP could fix it so you could create an XML datasource bolted on the side of
mailman.  Then you could have at it from Excel etc. or from within real
databases that supported some kind XML query.

-R



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 13 19:47:38 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:47:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
Message-ID: <p06240500c12df47a06bd@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:54 AM -0400 2006-09-13, Jay Vaagen wrote:

>  How can I set mailman to use the MX record instead of localhost (or one
>  static address) for sending mail?

You don't.  Mailman is not an MTA, so it knows nothing of MX records.

Maybe you can tell us more about where you want to get, and then 
maybe we can tell you more about how you could get there.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 13 19:53:45 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:53:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
	<6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>

Patrick Bogen wrote:
> On 9/13/06, Jay Vaagen <jay at abadata.com> wrote:
>> How can I set mailman to use the MX record instead of localhost (or one
>> static address) for sending mail?
> I've added FAQ 4.72
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.072.htp>
> as a simple answer for this.

The problem with this approach is that Mailman will still only use the
single specified mail server, rather than processing a list of
mailservers defined as MX records for a DNS domain.   It would be a nice
addition if Mailman allowed SMTPHOST to be set to either an explicit
host or a domain to be queried.  Sendmail accomplishes this in
mailertable by using these two formats:

  explict:  mx6.somedomain.com

  lookup:  [somedomain.com]

Using the lookup method causes Sendmail to query DNS for the current MX
host(s) and then traverse the list until it finds one available.

-Jim P.







From ashley at pcraft.com  Wed Sep 13 20:03:41 2006
From: ashley at pcraft.com (Ashley M. Kirchner)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:03:41 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>	<6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <450847FD.8020401@pcraft.com>

Jim Popovitch wrote:
> The problem with this approach is that Mailman will still only use the
> single specified mail server, rather than processing a list of
> mailservers defined as MX records for a DNS domain.
    If I have a domain name for which there are 3 MXs setup in a Round 
Robin configuration, wouldn't mailman be given a different IP each 
time?  For example:

; zone file fragment
@     IN MX 10 mail.example.com.
....
mail  IN A 192.168.0.4
      IN A 192.168.0.5
      IN A 192.168.0.6

    If I tell mailman SMTPHOST='mail.example.com', in theory it should 
receive a different IP to connect to each time it queries that host 
name.  UNLESS mailman is internally caching that information (to use 
again on subsequent runs.)

-- 
W | It's not a bug - it's an undocumented feature.
  +--------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ashley M. Kirchner <mailto:ashley at pcraft.com>   .   303.442.6410 x130
  IT Director / SysAdmin / Websmith             .     800.441.3873 x130
  Photo Craft Laboratories, Inc.            .     3550 Arapahoe Ave. #6
  http://www.pcraft.com ..... .  .    .       Boulder, CO 80303, U.S.A.




From jay at abadata.com  Wed Sep 13 20:57:31 2006
From: jay at abadata.com (Jay Vaagen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:57:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200609131857.k8DIvWL31193@raq550.sebewaing.net>

Ok, so after reading all this it becomes clear to me that this is not going
to be an easy fix.. 

If I understand all this correctly, there's no current feature that will
allow mailman to send mail from the correct virtual domain's hostname, and
not localhost.. correct?

Let's say I have these mailing lists:

"norwegians" on the domain "norway.com" - 1.1.1.10
"visitors" on the domain "sweden.com" - 1.1.1.11
"tourist" on the domain "denmark.com" - 1.1.1.12

The hostname of the server running mailman is "mailserver.europe.com" - with
IP 1.1.1.100


When someone posts to Norwegian at norway.com I would like emails sent from
that mailing list to originate from mail.norway.com ie. 1.1.1.10, not
mailserver.europe.com or 1.1.1.100.
When someone posts to visitors at sweden.com I would like emails sent from that
mailing list to originate from mail.sweden.com ie. 1.1.1.11.

The mail alias for those 3 domains would be "mail".

Any way to do this?

How about passing the domain name for the list through to SMTPHOST when the
email is sent and adding MAIL as the host name to make the FQDN...seeing as
"MAIL" is a static naming scheme.....??

Maybe that's not even possible...sounds good in theory...

Thanks so much for your replies...

:)


Jay Vaagen
Certified Technician
Abadata Computer Corporation, Inc.
jay at abadata.com
Phone: 989 883 3411
Fax: 989 883 9313


-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+jay=abadata.com at python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+jay=abadata.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Jim
Popovitch
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:54 PM
Cc: Mailman-Users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites

Patrick Bogen wrote:
> On 9/13/06, Jay Vaagen <jay at abadata.com> wrote:
>> How can I set mailman to use the MX record instead of localhost (or one
>> static address) for sending mail?
> I've added FAQ 4.72
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.072.htp>
> as a simple answer for this.

The problem with this approach is that Mailman will still only use the
single specified mail server, rather than processing a list of
mailservers defined as MX records for a DNS domain.   It would be a nice
addition if Mailman allowed SMTPHOST to be set to either an explicit
host or a domain to be queried.  Sendmail accomplishes this in
mailertable by using these two formats:

  explict:  mx6.somedomain.com

  lookup:  [somedomain.com]

Using the lookup method causes Sendmail to query DNS for the current MX
host(s) and then traverse the list until it finds one available.

-Jim P.





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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 21:02:57 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:02:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <200609131857.k8DIvWL31193@raq550.sebewaing.net>
References: <450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>
	<200609131857.k8DIvWL31193@raq550.sebewaing.net>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609131202h1b790334s20393d33478e026b@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/13/06, Jay Vaagen <jay at abadata.com> wrote:
> Ok, so after reading all this it becomes clear to me that this is not going
> to be an easy fix..
>
> If I understand all this correctly, there's no current feature that will
> allow mailman to send mail from the correct virtual domain's hostname, and
> not localhost.. correct?
> <snip>

Ah, I misunderstood. Try searching the FAQ for "virtual host", or some
modification thereof. I believe this is more like what you're asking
for.

- Patrick Bogen


From cpz at tuunq.com  Wed Sep 13 21:07:09 2006
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <200609131857.k8DIvWL31193@raq550.sebewaing.net> from Jay Vaagen
	at "Sep 13, 2006 02:57:31 pm"
Message-ID: <20060913190709.793197AE@mail.tuunq.com>

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Jay Vaagen wrote:

> If I understand all this correctly, there's no current feature that will
> allow mailman to send mail from the correct virtual domain's hostname, and
> not localhost.. correct?

As I understand the current implimentation of virtual domains, much of the
config is kept as site-wide, not domain- or list-wide, data. To do what you're
talking about would require at least domain-wide config.

Probably the easiest way to get the 'multiple' domains that you want
is to run one instance of mailman for each domain. Yoy can then configure
the smtphost for that specific domain.

Perhaps virtual domains in 2.2 will have this feature, however you'll have
to wait for 2.2 then :).

z!


From hjb at pollux.franken.de  Wed Sep 13 21:43:06 2006
From: hjb at pollux.franken.de (Hans-Juergen Beie)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:43:06 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <45085F4A.8070208@pollux.franken.de>

Hi,

Am Mi, 13.09.2006, 14:45, schrieb Tokio Kikuchi:
>> In short:
>> Replace the first line in /usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests
>>   # ! /usr/bin/python
>> by
>>   #! /usr/bin/python2.3
>> if you have a Python2.3 installed.
>>
>> As this problem appeared here (debian/etch, Mailman 2.1.8-2) after
>> upgrading Python 2.3 to 2.4 this seems to be reasonable.
>
> Hi, I want to clarify the situation.  Is this specific to debian?
>
> Can you try these and check the email version?
>
> $ python
> Python 2.4.3 ...
>  >>> import email
>  >>> email.__version__
> '3.0.1'
>  >>> ^D
> $ cd <prefix>/cron
> $ python
> Python 2.4.3 ...
>  >>> import paths
>  >>> import email
>  >>> email.__version__
> '2.5.7'

Here is my output:
-----> cut here >----------------
hjb at mail:~$ python
Python 2.4.4c0 (#2, Jul 30 2006, 15:43:58)
[GCC 4.1.2 20060715 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-9)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import email
>>> email.__version__
'3.0.2'
>>>
hjb at mail:~$ cd /usr/lib/mailman/cron
hjb at mail:/usr/lib/mailman/cron$ python
Python 2.4.4c0 (#2, Jul 30 2006, 15:43:58)
[GCC 4.1.2 20060715 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-9)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import paths
>>> import email
>>> email.__version__
'3.0.2'
>>>
-----< cut here <----------------

> The email-3.0.x in Python 2.4 is not suitable for mailman.  Mailman
> 2.1.8(or 9) works best with the email-2.5.7(or 8) which is the bug fix
> version of Python 2.3 library.

I see. How can I fix that?

hjb :-?



From ashley at pcraft.com  Thu Sep 14 01:25:08 2006
From: ashley at pcraft.com (Ashley M. Kirchner)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:25:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <20060913190709.793197AE@mail.tuunq.com>
References: <20060913190709.793197AE@mail.tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <45089354.7050903@pcraft.com>

Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> Probably the easiest way to get the 'multiple' domains that you want
> is to run one instance of mailman for each domain. Yoy can then configure
> the smtphost for that specific domain.
    And to second this part of Carl's e-mail, this is exactly what I'm 
doing on my end.  I wanted to be able to have the same mailing list 
*name* exist across multiple virtual domains.  Back in January 2003 I 
posted a question about this, and at the time, Barry Warsaw replied with 
the following:

----------
    AMK>     Under MM2.0.x I created separate installations for
    AMK> different virtual hosts.  This allowed me to create the same
    AMK> list name, on a different virtual host without having mailman
    AMK> conflict.  Now, with MM2.1, how should I continue to do this?

MM2.1 doesn't lift this restriction, so your best bet is to continue
your current approach.  However, there /is/ a semi-supported extension
mechanism that you might be able to use to share one installation to
do it all.  See the Mailman/Site.py file for details, although there's
no guarantee this will give you enough of a hook.

-Barry
----------

    So far I haven't seen this change, and to be perfectly honest, I 
don't really expect it to either.  I can't speak for everyone, but I 
think the number of people who have the same type of installation as me 
are fairly limited compared to everyone else who runs MM.  But then, I 
could be wrong.

    MM does what it was designed to do.  The fact that a few of us have 
quirky setups, I don't think is enough to go through a rewrite. :)  Just 
my two cents.

    But to comment on Jay Vaagen's original post, I think separating the 
virtual domains across multiple MM installations might be the easier way 
to go.  I have one server that's is specifically for MM, and it's 
hosting 7 different domains, each one with anywhere between 5 to 50 
lists on each installation.

    -- Ash


From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Thu Sep 14 02:26:41 2006
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:26:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <45085F4A.8070208@pollux.franken.de>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>	<16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>	<4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
	<45085F4A.8070208@pollux.franken.de>
Message-ID: <4508A1C1.6060700@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

Hi,
> 
>> The email-3.0.x in Python 2.4 is not suitable for mailman.  Mailman
>> 2.1.8(or 9) works best with the email-2.5.7(or 8) which is the bug fix
>> version of Python 2.3 library.
> 
> I see. How can I fix that?
> 

I suspect the debian people have omitted the mailman-2.5.x package from 
their ports.  File a bug report on their developers site.

In the mean time, you can extract email-2.5.x from our official 
distribution and install into <prefix>/pythonlib directory.  Or, you can 
edit cron/senddigests to use python2.3 as was suggested earlier.

Cheers,
-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Sep 14 04:22:41 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 11:22:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <45082AA7.1000301@hivemind.net>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <45082AA7.1000301@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <17672.48369.473681.601670@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Bretton Vine writes:

 > What gives? What is odd is that some files with " ' " in the
 > filename go to the list while others don't. I've tried changing
 > characterset in mail client to no avail.

This is a completely different issue IIRC.  For reasons I don't think
I've ever seen explained, the =?ISO-8859-1?Q?stuff%20goes%20here?=
MIME word syntax (RFC 2047, I think?) is unsuitable for use in header
parameters like file names.  So RFC 2231 syntax was invented, which
uses "'" as a syntax delimiter the way MIME words use = and ?.

Unfortunately, there is a bug (fixed in 2.1.9, again IIRC) in the way
that Mailman's decode_rfc2231 function parses RFC 2231 syntax
(basically, it doesn't expect the parameter value to contain any
apostrophes other than those used for the purposes of RFC 2231).

None of the above is necessarily accurate, but if you need more
detail, feel free to wait for the authoritative version from Tokio,
Barry, or Mark, or you can search the archives for rfc2231 (both
mailman-users and mailman-developers, I think it was reported on the
former and diagnosed on the latter).

HTH

Steve



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Thu Sep 14 06:03:07 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:03:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about Debian/Ubuntu Mailman  Package
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060912111936.063acc58@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <C12E228B.E954%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 9/12/06 11:26 AM, "Dragon" <dragon at crimson-dragon.com> wrote:

> Version 2.1.5 is rather old. I believe there are some security issues
> that have been fixed since that release. IMO it is a good idea to use
> the latest version to preclude as many potential issues as possible.

The security fixes are very likely backported by the major distributions.
Beyond that, they don't tend to do version upgrades of components until
their next major release.  (This was a major nuisance a while back the
Debian and Exim, as Debian had such a long wait for a major release that
nearly everyone on the Exim-users list had forgotten how to drive the Exim
version found in the "stable" Debian release.)

Mailman 2.1.5 remains old, but if the distributions' updates are applied,
the security fixes are likely close to current if not current.

  --John




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 14 06:23:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 23:23:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
	<6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c12e898ff7a1@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:53 PM -0400 2006-09-13, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>  The problem with this approach is that Mailman will still only use the
>  single specified mail server, rather than processing a list of
>  mailservers defined as MX records for a DNS domain.

Mailman is a Mailing List Management system.  It is not an MTA.  It 
does not do the work of an MTA.  It leave the MTA work to real MTAs 
that are designed to do that work.

Looking up MX records is the job of an MTA, not an MLM.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 14 06:26:48 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 23:26:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <200609131857.k8DIvWL31193@raq550.sebewaing.net>
References: <200609131857.k8DIvWL31193@raq550.sebewaing.net>
Message-ID: <p06240502c12e89f8100b@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:57 PM -0400 2006-09-13, Jay Vaagen wrote:

>  If I understand all this correctly, there's no current feature that will
>  allow mailman to send mail from the correct virtual domain's hostname, and
>  not localhost.. correct?

Mailman is a Mailing List Management system, not an MTA.  The kind of 
thing you're asking for would be within the purview of the MTA, and 
therefore Mailman would know nothing of it.

Heck, I don't even know any MTAs that allow you to do this kind of 
thing, but it's more their line of work than Mailman -- we just dump 
our outgoing traffic on the MTA, and let it do the heavy lifting of 
actually handling the delivery to the respective remote ends.

>  Any way to do this?

Nope.

I can't even imagine what kind of source code modifications would be 
required to achieve your goal.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 06:51:22 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 00:51:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c12e898ff7a1@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
	<6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>  <p06240501c12e898ff7a1@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <1158209482.17886.3.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 23:23 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 1:53 PM -0400 2006-09-13, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> 
> >  The problem with this approach is that Mailman will still only use the
> >  single specified mail server, rather than processing a list of
> >  mailservers defined as MX records for a DNS domain.
> 
> Mailman is a Mailing List Management system.  It is not an MTA.  It 
> does not do the work of an MTA.  It leave the MTA work to real MTAs 
> that are designed to do that work.
> 
> Looking up MX records is the job of an MTA, not an MLM.

Looking up MX records is also the job of an MUA, and Mailman is very
much like an MUA, albeit on steroids.  IMHO of course.

-Jim P.



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 14 07:34:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 00:34:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <1158209482.17886.3.camel@localhost>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
	<6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>  <p06240501c12e898ff7a1@[10.0.1.210]>
	<1158209482.17886.3.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <p06240503c12e9a03d2bf@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:51 AM -0400 2006-09-14, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>  Looking up MX records is also the job of an MUA, and Mailman is very
>  much like an MUA, albeit on steroids.  IMHO of course.

I don't know of an MUA on the planet that looks up MX records.

Check your RFCs.  Checking MX records is most definitely the purview 
of MTAs, since they're the ones expected to implement 2821 and to 
ensure the rules of 2822 are followed (and correct if not).

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 08:13:14 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 02:13:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c12e9a03d2bf@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
	<6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>  <p06240501c12e898ff7a1@[10.0.1.210]>
	<1158209482.17886.3.camel@localhost>
	<p06240503c12e9a03d2bf@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <1158214394.19823.5.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2006-09-14 at 00:34 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 12:51 AM -0400 2006-09-14, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> 
> >  Looking up MX records is also the job of an MUA, and Mailman is very
> >  much like an MUA, albeit on steroids.  IMHO of course.
> 
> I don't know of an MUA on the planet that looks up MX records.
> 
> Check your RFCs.  Checking MX records is most definitely the purview 
> of MTAs, since they're the ones expected to implement 2821 and to 
> ensure the rules of 2822 are followed (and correct if not).

OK, fair enough.  Back to Mailman, why is checking MX records (or at
least allowing specification of 2 or more SMTPHOSTS) a bad idea?  It
just seems to make good sense to me, considering failover, load
balancing, resiliency, etc.

-Jim P.



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 14 09:59:30 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 02:59:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <1158214394.19823.5.camel@localhost>
References: <200609131554.k8DFs7L19460@raq550.sebewaing.net>
	<6fbe3da00609130919i329aec03s40110ddbcc45d2e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<450845A9.7090404@yahoo.com>  <p06240501c12e898ff7a1@[10.0.1.210]>
	<1158209482.17886.3.camel@localhost>	<p06240503c12e9a03d2bf@[10.0.1.210]>
	<1158214394.19823.5.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <p06240504c12ebaa07788@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:13 AM -0400 2006-09-14, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>  OK, fair enough.  Back to Mailman, why is checking MX records (or at
>  least allowing specification of 2 or more SMTPHOSTS) a bad idea?  It
>  just seems to make good sense to me, considering failover, load
>  balancing, resiliency, etc.

There's nothing wrong in listing multiple IP addresses for the 
designated SMTPHOST.  DNS round robin and the way the TCP protocol 
works should take care of the failover issues without any added 
complexity.  If you wanted to put a Layer Four load-balancing switch 
in front of those mail servers, you could increase throughput and 
reliability even more.  If you wanted to make that Layer Four 
load-balancing switch fault-tolerant with an active-active failover 
mate, that would be yet another additional improvement.


However, speaking only for myself, Mailman does not need the added 
complexity of having to deal with looking up MX preferences, retrying 
DNS queries that are truncated because you tried to cram too many 
MXes into a UDP DNS packet, etc....

IMO, use the right tool for the right job.  These are all problems 
that MTAs have to deal with today, and how well they handle them (or 
badly), I don't think that this is a wheel that we need -- or want -- 
to reinvent.  Let the MTA do the job of the MTA, and let Mailman do 
the job of the MLM.


Now, that said, in a true and proper virtual hosting/domain 
environment, I've been thinking about this a bit more, and I can see 
that some people might prefer that each virtual host/domain should 
have a separate SMTPHOST setting.

The problem is that we don't have proper virtual hosting/domain 
handling within Mailman today, and I think it's generally a bad idea 
to retrofit one part of the overall solution without doing the rest.

Let's take care of this problem at the right time, when we're 
implementing a full and proper virtual hosting/domain environment 
within Mailman, and not try to put that cart before the horse.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk  Thu Sep 14 10:42:04 2006
From: t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk (David Lee)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:42:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <45089354.7050903@pcraft.com>
References: <20060913190709.793197AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<45089354.7050903@pcraft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0609140920250.17781@arachne.dur.ac.uk>

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006, Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:

> Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> > Probably the easiest way to get the 'multiple' domains that you want
> > is to run one instance of mailman for each domain. Yoy can then configure
> > the smtphost for that specific domain.
>     And to second this part of Carl's e-mail, this is exactly what I'm
> doing on my end.  I wanted to be able to have the same mailing list
> *name* exist across multiple virtual domains.  Back in January 2003 I
> posted a question about this, and at the time, Barry Warsaw replied with
> the following:
>
> ----------
>     AMK>     Under MM2.0.x I created separate installations for
>     AMK> different virtual hosts.  This allowed me to create the same
>     AMK> list name, on a different virtual host without having mailman
>     AMK> conflict.  Now, with MM2.1, how should I continue to do this?
>
> MM2.1 doesn't lift this restriction, so your best bet is to continue
> your current approach.  However, there /is/ a semi-supported extension
> mechanism that you might be able to use to share one installation to
> do it all.  See the Mailman/Site.py file for details, although there's
> no guarantee this will give you enough of a hook.

This is a gentle "+1", please, for same list name across multiple
independent domains; those lists operating independently.

(It's a topic that keeps simmering in the background... there was a little
discussion of it a few months ago.)

>     So far I haven't seen this change, and to be perfectly honest, I
> don't really expect it to either.  I can't speak for everyone, but I
> think the number of people who have the same type of installation as me
> are fairly limited compared to everyone else who runs MM.  But then, I
> could be wrong.
>
>     MM does what it was designed to do.  The fact that a few of us have
> quirky setups, I don't think is enough to go through a rewrite. :)  Just
> my two cents.

We have our main university domain "@durham.ac.uk".  But we also have
several related other domains (collaborative ventures) which have other
domain names.

In that sense we resemble an ISP offering multiple independent domains,
and offering mailing lists "@" each domain.

For several years we have run majordomo.  Although that has several
drawbacks by today's standards (hence our starting to migrate to Mailman!)
one thing majordomo can do and where Mailman currently falls short is to
handle (and quite naturally so) multiple "@domains" and to support the
same "listname@" (same name, totally independent functionality) on them.

So I certainly wouldn't classify "list at dom1" and "list at dom2" (same name
"list") as 'quirky'. Rather as 'routine' for an ISP-like organisation
offering multiple, logically independent domains.

Put another way: at a single domain site, the uniqueness of "listname" and
"listname at domain" are equivalent.  At a multi-domain site (e.g. a
multi-domain ISP-like body offering maillist services), the uniqueness
criterion has to be the full "list-A at dom-X" ("list-A" is insufficient).


And I hereby match my "+1" request with a "+1" offer to help test and
debug (so far as I reasonably can) any related beta code from the Mailman
developers.

-- 

:  David Lee                                I.T. Service          :
:  Senior Systems Programmer                Computer Centre       :
:                                           Durham University     :
:  http://www.dur.ac.uk/t.d.lee/            South Road            :
:                                           Durham DH1 3LE        :
:  Phone: +44 191 334 2752                  U.K.                  :


From hjb at pollux.franken.de  Thu Sep 14 11:40:57 2006
From: hjb at pollux.franken.de (Hans-Juergen Beie)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 11:40:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with digests
In-Reply-To: <4508A1C1.6060700@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <1157637421.5161.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20308.217.194.34.103.1158145133.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<16410.217.194.34.103.1158149658.squirrel@www.linef.net>
	<4507FD73.4000208@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
	<45085F4A.8070208@pollux.franken.de>
	<4508A1C1.6060700@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <59794.217.194.34.103.1158226857.squirrel@www.linef.net>

Am Do, 14.09.2006, 02:26, schrieb Tokio Kikuchi:
> Hi,
>>
>>> The email-3.0.x in Python 2.4 is not suitable for mailman.  Mailman
>>> 2.1.8(or 9) works best with the email-2.5.7(or 8) which is the bug fix
>>> version of Python 2.3 library.
>>
>> I see. How can I fix that?
>>
>
> I suspect the debian people have omitted the mailman-2.5.x package from
> their ports.  File a bug report on their developers site.
>
> In the mean time, you can extract email-2.5.x from our official
> distribution and install into <prefix>/pythonlib directory.  Or, you can
> edit cron/senddigests to use python2.3 as was suggested earlier.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp
> http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/

I just noticed that there already is a bugreport concernig this problem
(http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=384016). I sent your
hint to debian's bug tracker system.

Thanks ;)

hjb :-?
-- 
Hans-Juergen Beie
hjb at pollux.franken.de



From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Sep 14 12:29:11 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:29:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED: Mailman 2.1.9
In-Reply-To: <45082E96.4020309@hivemind.net>
References: <8538763C-6FBD-49CD-A252-E1A5991F1837@python.org>
	<45082E96.4020309@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <45092EF7.6040409@hivemind.net>

Bretton Vine said the following on 2006/09/13 06:15 PM:
> Will the following patch apply to 2.1.9 source?
> [ 1220144 ] allow specifying another list in accept_these_nonmembers
> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1220144&group_id=103&atid=300103

Confirmed: patch applies cleanly.

In addition the move from 2.1.8 (separate installations per virtualhost) 
compiled and installed fine, inclusive of patch.

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"We must remember that a right lost to one is lost to all." - William Reece 
Smith, Jr.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 14 17:11:44 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 10:11:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual sites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0609140920250.17781@arachne.dur.ac.uk>
References: <20060913190709.793197AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<45089354.7050903@pcraft.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0609140920250.17781@arachne.dur.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p06240505c12f206e53a2@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:42 AM +0100 2006-09-14, David Lee wrote:

>  So I certainly wouldn't classify "list at dom1" and "list at dom2" (same name
>  "list") as 'quirky'. Rather as 'routine' for an ISP-like organisation
>  offering multiple, logically independent domains.

Mailman was never designed to be used in a hosted/ISP/virtual domain 
environment.  It was originally designed to be run by individual 
list/site administrators on their own machine, where they have full 
privileged command-line access to the entire system.  Running it in 
any other kind of environment is likely to expose areas where it does 
not perform so well.

Just read all the FAQ entries pertaining to cPanel, Plesk, Apple, etc....

>  And I hereby match my "+1" request with a "+1" offer to help test and
>  debug (so far as I reasonably can) any related beta code from the Mailman
>  developers.

We don't have a mailman-testers list.  We have mailman-users and 
mailman-developers.  If you're up to the task of discussing 
modifications to the Python source code, then you're welcome to 
subscribe to the mailman-developers list.

I don't know where proper handling of full virtual domains is going 
to be implemented.  I don't know if they're going to try to do that 
for Mailman 2.2, or if that's going to have to wait for Mailman3. 
But either way, it's going to be a little while before this is 
available.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dave at umiacs.umd.edu  Thu Sep 14 20:39:12 2006
From: dave at umiacs.umd.edu (Dave Stern)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:39:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading to mm2.1.9?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0609141433080.2485@eruv.umiacs.umd.edu>

Has anyone upgraded to 2.1.9 successfully? I tried upgrading as follows:

./configure with same params as my release.

make install starts ok and ends ok but has one error:

Creating architecture independent directories...
chmod o-r /fs/mailman2/archives/private
....
for p in email-2.5.8 JapaneseCodecs-1.4.11 KoreanCodecs-2.0.5; \
do \
     gunzip -c ./$p.tar.gz | (cd . ; tar xf -); \
     (cd ./$p ; umask 02 ; PYTHONPATH=/fs/mailman2/pythonlib /usr/local/bin/pytho
n setup.py --quiet install --install-lib /fs/mailman2/pythonlib --install-pureli
b /fs/mailman2/pythonlib --install-data /fs/mailman2/pythonlib); \
done
   File "/fs/mailman2/pythonlib/email/_compat22.py", line 31
     yield self
              ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

Then it updates the lists but with each one, it says:

     Looks like you have a really recent CVS installation...
     you're either one brave soul, or you already ran me

Finally, restarting sendmail, apache and mailman, if I try to login
from the webpage, I get a failure. Traceback shows:

Sep 14 11:48:44 2006 admin(1562): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
admin(1562): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----] 
admin(1562): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(1562): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main
admin(1562):     main()
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 61, in main
admin(1562):     list_listinfo(mlist, language)
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 176, in list_li
stinfo
admin(1562):     replacements['<mm-subscribe-box>'] = mlist.FormatBox('email', s
ize=30)
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/HTMLFormatter.py", line 336, in Format
Box
admin(1562):     if isinstance(value, str):

Thank goodness for backups.  Any ideas? 
TIA

  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  generated by /dev/dave -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  David Stern                                    University of Maryland
            Institute for Advanced Computer Studies


From dave at umiacs.umd.edu  Thu Sep 14 21:49:00 2006
From: dave at umiacs.umd.edu (Dave Stern)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:49:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading to mm2.1.9?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0609141433080.2485@eruv.umiacs.umd.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0609141433080.2485@eruv.umiacs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0609141547010.10241@eruv.umiacs.umd.edu>

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006, Dave Stern wrote:

The last line of the tracedump was truncated in my initial message. 
Here's the full text prior to the pythin (v2.1.2) and environment variables

admin(1562): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----] 
admin(1562): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(1562): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main
admin(1562):     main()
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 61, in main
admin(1562):     list_listinfo(mlist, language)
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 176, in list_li
stinfo
admin(1562):     replacements['<mm-subscribe-box>'] = mlist.FormatBox('email', s
ize=30)
admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/HTMLFormatter.py", line 336, in Format
Box
admin(1562):     if isinstance(value, str):
admin(1562): TypeError: isinstance() arg 2 must be a class or type


TIA
  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  generated by /dev/dave -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  David Stern                                    University of Maryland
            Institute for Advanced Computer Studies


From justin at cityfone.net  Thu Sep 14 22:38:57 2006
From: justin at cityfone.net (Justin Zygmont)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:38:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] archive emails are garbled
Message-ID: <4509BDE1.2020508@cityfone.net>

I have a noticed a problem with emails stored in the list archives if 
they have been uuencoded.  When HTML emails are distributed to all the 
list members they just show the raw HTML code, so I used uuencode and it 
fixed that, but when I take a look at the message in the archives it 
looks mostly garbled.  Here's an example:

begin 644 AgentCommissions.html
M/"%$3T-465!%($A434P at 4%5"3$E#("(M+R]7,T,O+T141"!(5$U,(#0N,#$@
M5')A;G-I=&EO;F%L+R]%3B(^#0H\:'1M;#X-"CQH96%D/@T*/'1I=&QE/D-I
M='EF;VYE($-O;6UI<W-I;VX at 0F%N:SPO=&ET;&4^#0H\<W1Y;&4^#0H\(2TM
M#0IT9"YL:71T;&5T97AT("![(&9O;G0M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US
M:7IE.B X<'0@?0T*:#$@(" @(" @(" @(" @>R!F;VYT+69A;6EL>3H at 07)I
M86P[(&9O;G0M<VEZ93H@,31P="!]#0IH,B @(" @(" @(" @("![(&9O;G0M
M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US:7IE.B Q,G!T('T-"G1D+F)I9W1E>'0@
M(" @('L at 9F]N="UF86UI;'DZ($%R:6%L.R!F;VYT+7-I>F4Z(#$T<'0@?0T*


Anyone know if there is a better way to deal with this?





From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 14 23:48:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:48:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading to mm2.1.9?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0609141547010.10241@eruv.umiacs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609141448580531910e0c6d@msapiro>

Dave Stern wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Sep 2006, Dave Stern wrote:
>
>The last line of the tracedump was truncated in my initial message. 
>Here's the full text prior to the pythin (v2.1.2) and environment variables
>
>admin(1562): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----] 
>admin(1562): [----- Traceback ------] 
>admin(1562): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main
>admin(1562):     main()
>admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 61, in main
>admin(1562):     list_listinfo(mlist, language)
>admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 176, in list_li
>stinfo
>admin(1562):     replacements['<mm-subscribe-box>'] = mlist.FormatBox('email', s
>ize=30)
>admin(1562):   File "/fs/mailman2/Mailman/HTMLFormatter.py", line 336, in Format
>Box
>admin(1562):     if isinstance(value, str):
>admin(1562): TypeError: isinstance() arg 2 must be a class or type



Ooops!

This statement in HTMLFormatter.py and a couple of similar 'isinstance'
calls in htmlformat.py are part of the security changes in  Mailman
2.1.9. The problem is the use of str as the type argument requires
Python 2.3.

The quick and dirty fix in all three cases is to replace str with
types.StringType or with type(''). I.e.

HTMLFormatter - line 336 change

        if isinstance(value, str):

to either

        if isinstance(value, types.StringType):

or

        if isinstance(value, type('')):





htmlformat.py - line 452 change

        if isinstance(value, str):

to

        if isinstance(value, types.StringType):

or

        if isinstance(value, type('')):


htmlformat.py - line 465 change

        if isinstance(text, str):

to

        if isinstance(text, types.StringType):

or

        if isinstance(text, type('')):

(or upgrade your Python :-) )

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 15 00:02:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:02:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] archive emails are garbled
In-Reply-To: <4509BDE1.2020508@cityfone.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609141502050984a39fdb7d@msapiro>

Justin Zygmont wrote:

>I have a noticed a problem with emails stored in the list archives if 
>they have been uuencoded.  When HTML emails are distributed to all the 
>list members they just show the raw HTML code,


Messages as sent to message subscribers or messages in the archives?
You should be able to send HTML to individual subscribers if you don't
filter content or if you allow the appropriate MIME types in content
filtering. How such messages appear in archives depends on sitewide
archiving options set in mm_cfg.py.


>so I used uuencode and it 
>fixed that, but when I take a look at the message in the archives it 
>looks mostly garbled.  Here's an example:
>
>begin 644 AgentCommissions.html
>M/"%$3T-465!%($A434P at 4%5"3$E#("(M+R]7,T,O+T141"!(5$U,(#0N,#$@
>M5')A;G-I=&EO;F%L+R]%3B(^#0H\:'1M;#X-"CQH96%D/@T*/'1I=&QE/D-I
>M='EF;VYE($-O;6UI<W-I;VX at 0F%N:SPO=&ET;&4^#0H\<W1Y;&4^#0H\(2TM
>M#0IT9"YL:71T;&5T97AT("![(&9O;G0M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US
>M:7IE.B X<'0@?0T*:#$@(" @(" @(" @(" @>R!F;VYT+69A;6EL>3H at 07)I
>M86P[(&9O;G0M<VEZ93H@,31P="!]#0IH,B @(" @(" @(" @("![(&9O;G0M
>M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US:7IE.B Q,G!T('T-"G1D+F)I9W1E>'0@
>M(" @('L at 9F]N="UF86UI;'DZ($%R:6%L.R!F;VYT+7-I>F4Z(#$T<'0@?0T*


This is not garbled. It is the uuencoded AgentCommissions.html file. A
uuencoded file is not human readable, but as far as mail agents are
concerned, it is plain text and will be archived in its raw form. Some
MUAs see a uuencoded file in an email and call it an 'attachment' and
render it as such, but this is non-standard. Also some MUAs when
composing will put uuencoded data in a separate MIME part with
Content-Transfer-Encoding: uuencode, x-uuencode, uue or x-uue, but
this to is non-standard.


>Anyone know if there is a better way to deal with this?


You should be able to send HTML messages to your list members.

What Mailman version is this? What are your content filtering settings?
Can you provide a sample of a message as sent to Mailman and as
received from Mailman?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep 15 00:08:12 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:08:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading to mm2.1.9?
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609141448580531910e0c6d@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609141448580531910e0c6d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240509c12f83377aaa@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:48 PM -0700 2006-09-14, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  This statement in HTMLFormatter.py and a couple of similar 'isinstance'
>  calls in htmlformat.py are part of the security changes in  Mailman
>  2.1.9. The problem is the use of str as the type argument requires
>  Python 2.3.

FAQ 5.8 has been updated.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 15 00:11:38 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:11:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading to mm2.1.9?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0609141433080.2485@eruv.umiacs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC176020060914151138084385f546f1@msapiro>

Dave Stern  wrote:

>make install starts ok and ends ok but has one error:
>
>Creating architecture independent directories...
>chmod o-r /fs/mailman2/archives/private
>....
>for p in email-2.5.8 JapaneseCodecs-1.4.11 KoreanCodecs-2.0.5; \
>do \
>     gunzip -c ./$p.tar.gz | (cd . ; tar xf -); \
>     (cd ./$p ; umask 02 ; PYTHONPATH=/fs/mailman2/pythonlib /usr/local/bin/pytho
>n setup.py --quiet install --install-lib /fs/mailman2/pythonlib --install-pureli
>b /fs/mailman2/pythonlib --install-data /fs/mailman2/pythonlib); \
>done
>   File "/fs/mailman2/pythonlib/email/_compat22.py", line 31
>     yield self
>              ^
>SyntaxError: invalid syntax


I don't know what happened to my first attempt to reply to this.
Perhaps I sent it only to the OP (give 'em a vacation and you have to
retrain them).

Anyway, the above is OK. Your followup indicates you have Python 2.1.2.
That's why the 'yield' fails. It requires Python 2.2, but in operation
imports of _compat22 are wrapped in a try which falls back to
importing _compat21 on a syntax exception.


>Then it updates the lists but with each one, it says:
>
>     Looks like you have a really recent CVS installation...
>     you're either one brave soul, or you already ran me


This is OK too. It only means there were no config.pck format changes
from Mailman 2.1.8 to 2.1.9.


>Finally, restarting sendmail, apache and mailman, if I try to login
>from the webpage, I get a failure. Traceback shows:


Ooops!

Answered in reply to your followup post.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mdunston at music.vt.edu  Fri Sep 15 00:49:49 2006
From: mdunston at music.vt.edu (michael dunston)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 18:49:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] trying (unsucessfully) to add contetn to the
	archvies TOC template
Message-ID: <a02020014-1047-i386-53DE14C999C149C5920D5CFCBA2CDAEC@mdpb17.local>

I am attempting to incorporate a search form into my archives by adding HTML to
the following (v2.1.8) template files:

    templates/en/archtoc.html
    templates/en/archtocnombox.html

but the archive TOC pages being created to not contain my additional HTML.  (and
even if I add the HTML manually, it gets erased the next time Mailman rewrites
the archive TOC)

The DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE parameter is 'en' so I thought those were the
correct files to modify, but obviously I must be missing something here.  Is
there another place for the archive templates?  Thanks in advance for any
suggestions.

-- 
-- Michael Dunston
-- Music and Technology
-- <http://www.music.vt.edu/>
-- Virginia Tech Department of Music
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 15 05:08:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:08:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] trying (unsucessfully) to add contetn to
	thearchvies TOC template
In-Reply-To: <a02020014-1047-i386-53DE14C999C149C5920D5CFCBA2CDAEC@mdpb17.local>
Message-ID: <PC17602006091420083602037c52ef4f@msapiro>

michael dunston wrote:

>I am attempting to incorporate a search form into my archives by adding HTML to
>the following (v2.1.8) template files:
>
>    templates/en/archtoc.html
>    templates/en/archtocnombox.html
>
>but the archive TOC pages being created to not contain my additional HTML.  (and
>even if I add the HTML manually, it gets erased the next time Mailman rewrites
>the archive TOC)


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.048.htp>.

First, the templates/<language>/* templates should never be edited.

Second, in your case it appears that a list specific, domain specific
or site template is being used instead.

This is all discussed in the above FAQ article.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From lister at cybdyn.com  Fri Sep 15 05:37:35 2006
From: lister at cybdyn.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Guy..Lister?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 23:37:35 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] =?utf-8?q?Sendmail_mailer_in_Python=3F?=
Message-ID: <232FE375D1AE4D56A852D19F6F857BBB.MAI@s35.dnsdotnetpark.info>

Am I missing something?  Having recently installed Mailman 2.1.8, verified that it works, applied the exitstatus patch, again verified that it works, now I try to finish off the installation by automating the newaliases task for each newly created list by applying the patch, 
[ 644810 ] Sendmail mailer in Python, 
at http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=644810&group_id=103&atid=300103 
I've read that it is no longer supported.  I've searched far and wide for threads that pick up where it left off.  Is there any way to ressurrect this thread of "completely" automating Mailman?  

Specifically, on my Linux (RHN 8.0, Sendmail 8.12, Python 2.4.3) ppsys's installation instructions fail when I try to patch sendmail's proto.m4.  Should I just assume that on my version of Sendmail mailertable works and I can ignore his instruction to patch proto.m4?

Or is there some bigger picture I'm missing with respect to using this Sendmail mailer in Python?

Thanks in advance.



From bretton at hivemind.net  Fri Sep 15 12:17:04 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:17:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] central location for /pythonlib/* for multiple
	installations
Message-ID: <450A7DA0.3010700@hivemind.net>

Apologies if I've ignored something obvious here, but with 6 mailman 
installations (all upgraded to 2.1.9 with a patched sourced) I've found 
discrepancies in the version of

  mailman/pythonlib/email/Utils.py

between the different installations. One installation kept causing the 
problems with attachments with an apostrophe or other oddities (i.e. 
filename..pdf) etc. Given that for a minority of lists /all/ content must be 
accepted this isn't on. Exim accepts the messages, delivers to mailman and 
then they just sit in

  mailman/qfiles/in/*.pck

Even running unshunt doesn't help much. A reboot did though.

Can I run multiple installations of mailman but refer to on single location 
of the pythonlib/* files for all installations? This would prevent the 
different file sizes and content that seems to have cropped up.

  i.e. over 6 MM installs all copies of Utils.py are different sizes, some
       the same dates, others not

Given that this affects 250+ lists it's an important issue I need 
clarification on before experimenting.

thanks in advance.
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Not all who wander are lost." - J. R. R. Tolkien


From her at adm.ku.dk  Fri Sep 15 14:13:06 2006
From: her at adm.ku.dk (Henrik Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 14:13:06 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the From field displayed to the user
Message-ID: <78E3AAA50C11F0419C4C3F41707B65300888399F@taipan.ad.adm.ku.dk>

My Mailman list server is currently called
mailman.fullqualified.domain.name and this is reflected by the From
field in the mails sendt by the listsserver (From: root
root at mailman.fullqualified.domain.name
<mailto:root at mailman.full.domain.name> ). Instead I want to change the
displayed host name to list.fullqualified.domain.name in the e-mail
From: field and the webinterface.
 
Changing myhostname in the /etc/postfix/main.cf (and restarting the
Postfix server) does not work.
Changing mydomain in the /etc/postfix/main.cf (and restarting the
Postfix server) does not work.
myorigin is already set to $myhostname, so changing this would probably
not change anything either.
 
My colleague and I have read several documents, but until now we have't
found out anything usefull (in means of changing the From field).
 
Also I am uncertain whether I am suppose to make changes to the Mailman
configuration or the Postfix configuration in order to change the From
field, and there in which configuration file the changes should be made.
 
How can I set this up so the server appear as
list.fullqualified.domain.name?
 
Regards Henrik Rasmussen


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 15 16:42:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:42:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] central location for /pythonlib/* for
	multipleinstallations
In-Reply-To: <450A7DA0.3010700@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006091507424209373b128fb3@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>Apologies if I've ignored something obvious here, but with 6 mailman 
>installations (all upgraded to 2.1.9 with a patched sourced) I've found 
>discrepancies in the version of
>
>  mailman/pythonlib/email/Utils.py
>
>between the different installations.


I don't know why your installations were not all upgraded to email
2.5.8 when you upgraded to 2.1.9, but they should have been.


>One installation kept causing the 
>problems with attachments with an apostrophe or other oddities (i.e. 
>filename..pdf) etc.


That is fixed in email 2.5.8


>Given that for a minority of lists /all/ content must be 
>accepted this isn't on. Exim accepts the messages, delivers to mailman and 
>then they just sit in
>
>  mailman/qfiles/in/*.pck
>
>Even running unshunt doesn't help much. A reboot did though.


unshunt only handles messages in qfiles/shunt. It wouldn't affect
qfiles/in. However, I also don't understand the messages just sitting
in the 'in' queue. I seems that IncomingRunner died, which IIRC is not
the symptom of the 'apostrophe in attachment filename' issue.


>Can I run multiple installations of mailman but refer to on single location 
>of the pythonlib/* files for all installations? This would prevent the 
>different file sizes and content that seems to have cropped up.


Yes. In each installation there are copies of paths.py in the bin,
cron, scripts and tests directories. Each of these contains the
following section


# We also need the pythonlib directory on the path to pick up any
overrides of
# standard modules and packages.  Note that these must go at the front
of the
# path for this reason.
sys.path.insert(0, os.path.join(prefix, 'pythonlib'))


In each paths.py in each installation, replace

sys.path.insert(0, os.path.join(prefix, 'pythonlib'))

with

sys.path.insert(0, '/path/to/the/one/pythonlib'))

but the real issue is why didn't your 2.1.9 upgrade process install the
right email library in pythonlib in the first place.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 15 16:48:09 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:48:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the From field displayed to the user
In-Reply-To: <78E3AAA50C11F0419C4C3F41707B65300888399F@taipan.ad.adm.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <PC17602006091507480909373b128f92@msapiro>

Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
> 
>How can I set this up so the server appear as
>list.fullqualified.domain.name?


If I understand the issue correctly, see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>.

You want

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'list.fullqualified.domain.name'

and you also need to run fix_url as mentioned in the FAQ or just change
the host_name attribute on each list's General Options page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 15 16:58:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:58:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sendmail mailer in Python?
In-Reply-To: <232FE375D1AE4D56A852D19F6F857BBB.MAI@s35.dnsdotnetpark.info>
References: <232FE375D1AE4D56A852D19F6F857BBB.MAI@s35.dnsdotnetpark.info>
Message-ID: <450ABF9C.7020806@value.net>

Guy..Lister wrote:
> Am I missing something?  Having recently installed Mailman 2.1.8,
> verified that it works, applied the exitstatus patch, again verified
> that it works, now I try to finish off the installation by automating
> the newaliases task for each newly created list by applying the
> patch, [ 644810 ] Sendmail mailer in Python, at
> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=644810&group_id=103&atid=300103
>  I've read that it is no longer supported.  I've searched far and
> wide for threads that pick up where it left off.  Is there any way to
> ressurrect this thread of "completely" automating Mailman?

I'll let Richard respond to the above if he wants to, but for a 
different approach to sendmail alias automation, see 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.049.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From wheakory at isu.edu  Fri Sep 15 19:41:07 2006
From: wheakory at isu.edu (Kory Wheatley)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:41:07 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman Installer owner
Message-ID: <450AE5B3.8060006@isu.edu>

I didn't know what list to seen this to because it's kind of an 
in-between question/help.

I currently I'm running Mailman 2.1.6 and want to upgrade to Mailman 
2.1.9.  I'll do the basic procedure of ./configure and make install, but 
I what to change the owner of the installer of Mailman and install it 
with a different user.

Currently I installed mailman under an account callled wheakory and now 
I want to configure Mailman under mailmgmt.  Would the following 
procedure work:

First shutdown mailman
change ownership or group with:  find . -user wheakory -exec chown 
mailmgmt {} \; find . -group wheakory -exec chgrp mailmgmt {} \;
Login as mailmgmt
cd to mailman-2.1.9
./configure (with our current parameters set)
make install
start mailman


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 16 00:00:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:00:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman Installer owner
In-Reply-To: <450AE5B3.8060006@isu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC176020060915150003098439b5323b@msapiro>

Kory Wheatley wrote:
>
>I didn't know what list to seen this to because it's kind of an 
>in-between question/help.


Mailman-Users is appropriate.


>Currently I installed mailman under an account callled wheakory and now 
>I want to configure Mailman under mailmgmt.  Would the following 
>procedure work:
>
>First shutdown mailman
>change ownership or group with:  find . -user wheakory -exec chown 
>mailmgmt {} \; find . -group wheakory -exec chgrp mailmgmt {} \;
>Login as mailmgmt
>cd to mailman-2.1.9
>./configure (with our current parameters set)
>make install
>start mailman


Normally, changing the group shouldn't be required as the group should
be 'mailman' (or whatever the mailman user is) on virtually everything.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to run bin/check_perms (and if necessary,
'bin/check_perms -f' as root) between 'make install' and start mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From justin at cityfone.net  Sat Sep 16 00:52:51 2006
From: justin at cityfone.net (Justin Zygmont)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:52:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
Message-ID: <450B2EC3.2080006@cityfone.net>

Is one of the other lists a better place to ask this?


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: archive emails are garbled
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 13:38:57 -0700
From: Justin Zygmont <justin at cityfone.net>
To: mailman-users at python.org

I have a noticed a problem with emails stored in the list archives if
they have been uuencoded.  When HTML emails are distributed to all the
list members they just show the raw HTML code, so I used uuencode and it
fixed that, but when I take a look at the message in the archives it
looks mostly garbled.  Here's an example:

begin 644 AgentCommissions.html
M/"%$3T-465!%($A434P at 4%5"3$E#("(M+R]7,T,O+T141"!(5$U,(#0N,#$@
M5')A;G-I=&EO;F%L+R]%3B(^#0H\:'1M;#X-"CQH96%D/@T*/'1I=&QE/D-I
M='EF;VYE($-O;6UI<W-I;VX at 0F%N:SPO=&ET;&4^#0H\<W1Y;&4^#0H\(2TM
M#0IT9"YL:71T;&5T97AT("![(&9O;G0M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US
M:7IE.B X<'0@?0T*:#$@(" @(" @(" @(" @>R!F;VYT+69A;6EL>3H at 07)I
M86P[(&9O;G0M<VEZ93H@,31P="!]#0IH,B @(" @(" @(" @("![(&9O;G0M
M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US:7IE.B Q,G!T('T-"G1D+F)I9W1E>'0@
M(" @('L at 9F]N="UF86UI;'DZ($%R:6%L.R!F;VYT+7-I>F4Z(#$T<'0@?0T*


Anyone know if there is a better way to deal with this?




From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 16 06:05:47 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:05:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <450B2EC3.2080006@cityfone.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006091521054702508ab9d589@msapiro>

Justin Zygmont wrote:

>Is one of the other lists a better place to ask this?

Probably not. Did you see the reply to your original post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-September/053291.html>?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Sat Sep 16 09:48:16 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:48:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] central location for /pythonlib/* for
	multipleinstallations
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006091507424209373b128fb3@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006091507424209373b128fb3@msapiro>
Message-ID: <450BAC40.1090206@hivemind.net>

Mark Sapiro said the following on 2006/09/15 04:42 PM:
> I don't know why your installations were not all upgraded to email
> 2.5.8 when you upgraded to 2.1.9, but they should have been.

I'm just as puzzled ;-)

> Yes. In each installation there are copies of paths.py in the bin,
> cron, scripts and tests directories. Each of these contains the
> following section

<snip useful solution - thanks muchly>

> but the real issue is why didn't your 2.1.9 upgrade process install the
> right email library in pythonlib in the first place.

I don't know. I shut down each installation of mailman via the 
/etc/init.d/mailman.$domain init script before doing the `make && make 
install` after specific configuration options for each install.

I suppose it's possible a stray process was still running?

Anyway, the problem is sorted for now and I have some additional info for a 
single source of the pythonlibs. Now just to make sure a future upgrade path 
isn't compromised by opting for this.

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"If I work incessantly to the last, nature owes me another form of existence 
when the present one collapses." - Goethe, 1829


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 16 15:08:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:08:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] central location for /pythonlib/*
	formultipleinstallations
In-Reply-To: <450BAC40.1090206@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609160608020343deecc499@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>Mark Sapiro said the following on 2006/09/15 04:42 PM:
>> I don't know why your installations were not all upgraded to email
>> 2.5.8 when you upgraded to 2.1.9, but they should have been.
>
>I'm just as puzzled ;-)


I think I have observed this happening in one way, but I'm not sure of
the details. Possibly the tarball is unpacked recursively so that the
unpack directory ends up containing misc/email-2.5.8/* instead of
misc/email-2.5.8.tar.gz before 'make install' is run. This may cause
the unpack/install of email-2.5.8 to fail leaving the old email
library in pythonlib.

Again, I'm not sure, but there also may be an issue if the tarball is
unpacked into the old unpack directory so there is more than one
version of the email library in misc/ in the unpack directory.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jason at mastaler.com  Sat Sep 16 20:30:36 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 16 Sep 2006 18:30:36 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
Message-ID: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>

I was surprised to find the Mailman lists not on Gmane, and some 
googling revealed some sort of religious flame war I don't really want 
to get into.  But, I think at the very least, mailman-announce should be 
carried on Gmane.  I don't see how that would hurt anyone.  I'd really 
like to just add an RSS feed from Gmane in my browser to pick up news 
about new MM releases rather than having to subscribe to a list and get 
it in email form.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Sep 16 21:07:18 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:07:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:30 PM +0000 9/16/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>  I was surprised to find the Mailman lists not on Gmane, and some
>  googling revealed some sort of religious flame war I don't really want
>  to get into.

The reason that they were removed from Gmane is that they tell us 
they have a policy of always contacting the listowner to see if it's 
okay for them to carry the list on their site, and I've spoken to the 
other listowners and we're all pretty sure that they never contacted 
any of us.  So, in violation of their own claimed policy, they put 
the list up.  All of the listowners are in agreement that this is 
pretty sleazy behaviour.

Unfortunately, this has happened more than once with Gmane.  And we 
know that we're not the first to have this problem.  IMO, this means 
we cannot trust them, either now or in the future.


I try very hard to "never say never", but I cannot imagine a 
circumstance were we would possibly ever trust them to carry any 
Mailman or Python-related content.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jason at mastaler.com  Sat Sep 16 21:40:03 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 16 Sep 2006 19:40:03 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <450C5313.508@mastaler.com>

AFAIK, Gmane has a small group of administrators who add the lists. 
It's possible one of them just forgot to notify you guys, or didn't 
understand that he had an obligation to.  I'd guess that this was an 
honest mistake more than anything malicious.  Having known Lars Magne 
Ingebrigtsen for years, he's all about being a good net citizen, writing 
software that is aggressively standards compliant, and all the other 
good things.  Not to mention his significant contributions to open 
source software.  In short, I've never known him or anything he's ever 
been involved in to be "sleazy".

It seems wrong to me that you guys are preventing hundreds and perhaps 
thousands of Mailman and Python users from using an extremely valuable 
service (Gmane) because of what amounts to a technicality, and is most 
likely just a misunderstanding.

On 9/16/06 1:07 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 6:30 PM +0000 9/16/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> 
>>  I was surprised to find the Mailman lists not on Gmane, and some
>>  googling revealed some sort of religious flame war I don't really want
>>  to get into.
> 
> The reason that they were removed from Gmane is that they tell us they 
> have a policy of always contacting the listowner to see if it's okay for 
> them to carry the list on their site, and I've spoken to the other 
> listowners and we're all pretty sure that they never contacted any of 
> us.  So, in violation of their own claimed policy, they put the list 
> up.  All of the listowners are in agreement that this is pretty sleazy 
> behaviour.
> 
> Unfortunately, this has happened more than once with Gmane.  And we know 
> that we're not the first to have this problem.  IMO, this means we 
> cannot trust them, either now or in the future.
> 
> I try very hard to "never say never", but I cannot imagine a 
> circumstance were we would possibly ever trust them to carry any Mailman 
> or Python-related content.
> 


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep 17 02:57:58 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 19:57:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450C5313.508@mastaler.com>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]> <450C5313.508@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>

At 7:40 PM +0000 9/16/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>                                                Having known Lars
>  Magne Ingebrigtsen for years, he's all about being a good net
>  citizen, writing software that is aggressively standards
>  compliant, and all the other good things.  Not to mention his
>  significant contributions to open source software.  In short,
>  I've never known him or anything he's ever been involved in
>  to be "sleazy".

I don't know Lars personally, but in the exchanges we've had, he does 
seem to be a nice enough guy.

The problem is that there have been more than one incident with Gmane 
in groups that I'm affiliated with.  I could forgive one incident. 
It's harder for me to forgive two.  In talking to other people who've 
likewise had these kinds of things done to them by Gmane, it's much 
much harder for me to forgive multiple such incidents.

>  It seems wrong to me that you guys are preventing hundreds
>  and perhaps thousands of Mailman and Python users from
>  using an extremely valuable service (Gmane) because of what
>  amounts to a technicality, and is most likely just a
>  misunderstanding.

The information is available in plenty of places, beyond the official 
archive sites.  I don't think anyone on the project is going to lose 
any sleep that it's not available on Gmane -- that's assuming that it 
has not been re-added to Gmane over our express objections.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jason at mastaler.com  Sun Sep 17 03:25:00 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 17 Sep 2006 01:25:00 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
	<450C5313.508@mastaler.com> <p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com>

I understand what you're saying, but seriously, who cares if the mailman 
lists were added without anyone's approval?  Gmane is a valuable and 
useful service and does no damage to anyone.  You could think of it as 
someone doing the project a favor rather than something that needs 
"forgiveness."  The fact that you have philosophical objections to Gmane 
shouldn't affect whether the Mailman lists are carried there.  That's 
unfair to everyone else.

On 9/16/06 6:57 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> The problem is that there have been more than one incident with Gmane in 
> groups that I'm affiliated with.  I could forgive one incident. It's 
> harder for me to forgive two.  In talking to other people who've 
> likewise had these kinds of things done to them by Gmane, it's much much 
> harder for me to forgive multiple such incidents.


From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Sun Sep 17 05:25:45 2006
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:25:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <C1322A69.28C5B%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>

On 9/16/06 8:25 PM, Jason R. Mastaler at jason at mastaler.com wrote:

> I understand what you're saying, but seriously, who cares if the mailman
> lists were added without anyone's approval?  Gmane is a valuable and
> useful service and does no damage to anyone.  You could think of it as
> someone doing the project a favor rather than something that needs
> "forgiveness."  The fact that you have philosophical objections to Gmane
> shouldn't affect whether the Mailman lists are carried there.  That's
> unfair to everyone else.

As valuable as you think Gmane is and how thousands of people can benefit, I
can only say "what the heck is Gmane". I've never heard of it other than the
last time this discussion came up (and I've heard of most widespread things
on the Internet) so I think you're way overestimating how many people would
benefit. Granted, I'm a sample of one but having now checked out what is it,
it just makes think "what's the big deal?" Certainly not something I see
adding a lot of value. If I'm reading it right, Gmane does mail to Usenet
gateway. How does that add value considering mailman already has mail to
Usenet gatewaying built into it.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep 17 07:32:46 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:32:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]> <450C5313.508@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]> <450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]>

At 1:25 AM +0000 9/17/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>  I understand what you're saying, but seriously, who cares
>  if the mailman lists were added without anyone's approval?

I do.  The other listowners do.  Lots of other owners of other lists 
that I've talked to likewise care what's being done with their lists.

>  Gmane is a valuable and useful service and does no damage
>  to anyone.

I disagree.  Among other things, they frequently take away control 
that the listowners have over who is allowed to subscribe to lists 
and who is not (and who is allowed to post and who is not), because 
Gmane doesn't control the subscribership of any of their gated 
newsgroups nor do they limit the posting privileges for most of their 
gated newsgroups.

By rights, the listowner(s) should have the final say as to who is 
allowed to see the archives of their list, who is allowed to 
subscribe to their list, and who is allowed to post.  Period.


Today, Gmane may not be serving up any ads side-by-side with our 
content, or allowing their copy of our content to be taken by more 
unsavoury characters who might then use that as fodder for a spam 
campaign (or otherwise abuse it), but once that control is out of our 
hands then there's nothing we can do to protect our list and our list 
members.

>  You could think of it as someone doing the project a
>  favor rather than something that needs "forgiveness."

In commercial circles, the kind of thing that they're doing is called 
piracy -- they take someone else's content and repurpose that for 
their own benefit and for the benefit of their customers.


Okay, so Lars has a policy that they don't ever take someone else's 
content without their express approval, but we know of multiple 
examples where that policy was not followed.  If they did rigorously 
follow that policy, then what they do could potentially be classified 
under fair use, depending on how they use that and make it available 
to their customers.

Okay, so Lars does not today make a profit running Gmane.  That 
doesn't mean that tomorrow he won't change his mind, or "sell" the 
business to someone else who will.

>  The fact that you have philosophical objections to
>  Gmane shouldn't affect whether the Mailman lists are
>  carried there.  That's unfair to everyone else.

If I and all the other listowners have a philosophical objection to 
Gmane copying and repurposing our content, then that most definitely 
*should* affect whether our lists are carried there -- that's a key 
part of our job.


We're not against other sites carrying copies of our content, if we 
are convinced that they will operate in good faith and will abide by 
our policies (and their own).  We do this today with 
mail-archive.com, who host the official searchable archives of this 
list, among others.

If the Gmane folks had actually come to us first, we might well have 
approved their request to set up a gateway.  But they didn't, and if 
they violate that most basic principle of good operation and good 
netizenship, we have to seriously wonder what other good principles 
that they might accidentally one day occasionally violate.


And you better believe that we're looking into nabble.com, too.  From 
what I can tell, it looks like just another site that takes what they 
think is "free content" and then re-packages that for their own 
benefit.

As an Free/Libre/Open-Source Software (FLOSS) project, we try to be 
pretty open with our software and all the related content, but there 
are still some boundaries that have to be respected.  Most basic 
among those are copyright (and copyleft).

We get pretty unhappy when others casually violate these boundaries 
and don't show us the respect that we are due.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jason at mastaler.com  Sun Sep 17 08:10:50 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 17 Sep 2006 06:10:50 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
	<450C5313.508@mastaler.com> <p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>
	<450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com> <p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <450CE6EA.3080804@mastaler.com>

On 9/16/06 11:32 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> If the Gmane folks had actually come to us first, we might well have 
> approved their request to set up a gateway. 

So because you feel personally offended, you choose to punish all 
Mailman users by not letting Gmane carry their lists?  I think you are 
serving your own interests, and not those of the Mailman community, and 
that is unfortunate.

Good god man, this is an open source software project.  If Gmane allows 
me and others to keep up with Barry's release announcements for example 
in a convenient manner, I think that's a good thing.  You've blown this 
issue up into comic book proportions and made it something that it 
simply is not.


From cpz at tuunq.com  Sun Sep 17 08:29:19 2006
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 23:29:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450CE6EA.3080804@mastaler.com> from "Jason R. Mastaler" at "Sep
	17, 2006 06:10:50 am"
Message-ID: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> On 9/16/06 11:32 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> > If the Gmane folks had actually come to us first, we might well have 
> > approved their request to set up a gateway. 

> So because you feel personally offended, you choose to punish all 
> Mailman users by not letting Gmane carry their lists?  I think you are 
> serving your own interests, and not those of the Mailman community, and 
> that is unfortunate.

AFAICT, most of the "mailman community" reads this mailman list. It's not
hard to find or use. Also, decending to personal attacks does not further
the disuussion.

> Good god man, this is an open source software project.  If Gmane allows 
> me and others to keep up with Barry's release announcements for example 
> in a convenient manner, I think that's a good thing.  You've blown this 
> issue up into comic book proportions and made it something that it 
> simply is not.

I think that Jason is doing the blowing up here. The list owners/maintainers
have clearly said that they don't want to play with gmane. Done.  If gmane
had added some of my lists w/o asking, I'd have some impolite things to say
about that, too. Just because mailman is an opensource project doesn't mean
that the maintainers -owe- the rest of the world anything. (And, if you
want to keep up with announcements, subscribe to the mailman-announce list.)

Please let it rest.

z!



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Sep 17 10:32:25 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 03:32:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450CE6EA.3080804@mastaler.com>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>	<450C5313.508@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>	<450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com>
	<p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]> <450CE6EA.3080804@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c132b3c4c29a@[10.0.1.4]>

At 6:10 AM +0000 9/17/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>  So because you feel personally offended, you choose to punish all
>  Mailman users by not letting Gmane carry their lists?  I think you are
>  serving your own interests, and not those of the Mailman community, and
>  that is unfortunate.

What parts of the Mailman community can only access this mailing list 
(and the archives) via services like Gmane, as opposed to subscribing 
to this mailing list, and reading our public archives that we 
maintain on python.org and at mail-archive.com?

Please tell me what parts of the Mailman community are having this 
heinous crime committed against their person.


The lists are open to public subscription (we don't even require 
approval), and one of the very few things we ask is that people don't 
make their own copies of those archives publicly accessible (and 
abusable), and that people don't set up their own public gateways 
which allow anyone to post.

If people want to post to the list, they should do so as a subscriber 
to the list, and if they want to see the content of this list then 
they should either subscribe or read the public archives.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how this is such a heinous crime.

>  Good god man, this is an open source software project.  If Gmane allows
>  me and others to keep up with Barry's release announcements for example
>  in a convenient manner, I think that's a good thing.

I don't see where Gmane has a God-given right to carry any content 
they want, and to do whatever they want with that content.

Their right to carry content stops where it impacts our right to 
choose where our content is being distributed or what is being done 
with that content, and to require that anyone who wishes to 
redistribute our content make sure that they do so by our rules.

When they do so in violation of our rules (and theirs), that's "game over".

>                                                        You've blown this
>  issue up into comic book proportions and made it something that it
>  simply is not.

I think maybe you need to go have another talk with Lars.  When I 
apprised him of the situation and asked that they stop carrying our 
content, he didn't put up a fuss or a fight -- he agreed that they 
had been carrying our content without our approval, in violation of 
our policies and theirs, and he terminated the gateway.

Frankly, that exchange says far more positive things about Gmane than 
you've done, and the more you rabid you get, and the more you rant 
endlessly about this subject, the less likely we are to ever 
reconsider this position in a positive light.  After all, if Gmane is 
likely to attract people that behave in that manner, then maybe it 
really is a better thing that we don't allow them to ever re-enable 
their gateway.


IMO, what you've shown us so far is a pretty poor advertisement for 
Gmane.  If you want to continue to drag them down with you, then you 
don't leave me a whole lot of choice in terms of what kinds of action 
I can take to deal with that kind of behaviour.

If nothing else, the subject is completely off-topic, and does not 
belong on this list.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From hennie at overland.co.za  Sun Sep 17 12:32:09 2006
From: hennie at overland.co.za (Hennie Rautenbach)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:32:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.8 posting problems
Message-ID: <450D2429.1090905@overland.co.za>

Hi there,

I run Mailman 2.1.8 on a Debian (Sarge) box. The MTA is Postfix (With 
amavisd, spamassasin and clamav). I have two fairly busy lists that each 
have less than 1000 subscribers. Yesterday something broke. No-one 
touched the server (irrelevant I suppose). Postings are submitted but 
don't get distributed to the subscribers. I have checked all logs and 
made sure the MTA and qrunner is running. I can send and receive mail to 
and from  the server from my account. It is just the mailman stuff that 
don't come through anymore. There are quite a backlog of .pck files in 
~/qfiles/out and ~/qfiles/retry. The only notable error is in the 
~/logs/post file. Where previously I had "success" status with each 
posting I now get "failures" as per the log example below:

Sep 17 12:22:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from rigel at somewhere.co.za, 
size=2633, message-id=<20060917100954.8524C3918 at ctb-mesg4.saix.net>, 1 
failures
Sep 17 12:23:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from hennie at somewhere.co.za, 
size=2702, message-id=<450D1FBC.1020103 at server.co.za>, 1 failures

Any idea what may have caused my messages to appear with the "failures" 
status ? Any help in diagnosing the problem will be greatly appreciated. 
I have fiddled with it quite a bit but am at a dead end...

Kind regards,

Hennie



From hennie at overland.co.za  Sun Sep 17 12:32:36 2006
From: hennie at overland.co.za (Hennie Rautenbach)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:32:36 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.8 posting problems
Message-ID: <450D2444.2020706@overland.co.za>

Hi there,

I run Mailman 2.1.8 on a Debian (Sarge) box. The MTA is Postfix (With 
amavisd, spamassasin and clamav). I have two fairly busy lists that each 
have less than 1000 subscribers. Yesterday something broke. No-one 
touched the server (irrelevant I suppose). Postings are submitted but 
don't get distributed to the subscribers. I have checked all logs and 
made sure the MTA and qrunner is running. I can send and receive mail to 
and from  the server from my account. It is just the mailman stuff that 
don't come through anymore. There are quite a backlog of .pck files in 
~/qfiles/out and ~/qfiles/retry. The only notable error is in the 
~/logs/post file. Where previously I had "success" status with each 
posting I now get "failures" as per the log example below:

Sep 17 12:22:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from rigel at somewhere.co.za, 
size=2633, message-id=<20060917100954.8524C3918 at ctb-mesg4.saix.net>, 1 
failures
Sep 17 12:23:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from hennie at somewhere.co.za, 
size=2702, message-id=<450D1FBC.1020103 at server.co.za>, 1 failures

Any idea what may have caused my messages to appear with the "failures" 
status ? Any help in diagnosing the problem will be greatly appreciated. 
I have fiddled with it quite a bit but am at a dead end...

Kind regards,

Hennie



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Sep 17 17:10:32 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 08:10:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.8 posting problems
In-Reply-To: <450D2429.1090905@overland.co.za>
Message-ID: <PC17602006091708103204066d47edb6@msapiro>

Hennie Rautenbach 
>There are quite a backlog of .pck files in 
>~/qfiles/out and ~/qfiles/retry. The only notable error is in the 
>~/logs/post file. Where previously I had "success" status with each 
>posting I now get "failures" as per the log example below:
>
>Sep 17 12:22:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from rigel at somewhere.co.za, 
>size=2633, message-id=<20060917100954.8524C3918 at ctb-mesg4.saix.net>, 1 
>failures
>Sep 17 12:23:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from hennie at somewhere.co.za, 
>size=2702, message-id=<450D1FBC.1020103 at server.co.za>, 1 failures
>
>Any idea what may have caused my messages to appear with the "failures" 
>status ? Any help in diagnosing the problem will be greatly appreciated. 


The problem is between Mailman and the outgoing MTA (Postfix). What is
in Mailman's 'smtp' and 'smtp-failure' logs and the Postfix logs?

Is the out queue backlogged? (see
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-August/052864.html>).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From hennie at overland.co.za  Sun Sep 17 17:31:35 2006
From: hennie at overland.co.za (Hennie Rautenbach)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 17:31:35 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.8 posting problems
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006091708103204066d47edb6@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006091708103204066d47edb6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <450D6A57.7000006@overland.co.za>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Hennie Rautenbach 
>> There are quite a backlog of .pck files in 
>> ~/qfiles/out and ~/qfiles/retry. The only notable error is in the 
>> ~/logs/post file. Where previously I had "success" status with each 
>> posting I now get "failures" as per the log example below:
>>
>> Sep 17 12:22:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from rigel at somewhere.co.za, 
>> size=2633, message-id=<20060917100954.8524C3918 at ctb-mesg4.saix.net>, 1 
>> failures
>> Sep 17 12:23:31 2006 (2416) post to chat from hennie at somewhere.co.za, 
>> size=2702, message-id=<450D1FBC.1020103 at server.co.za>, 1 failures
>>
>> Any idea what may have caused my messages to appear with the "failures" 
>> status ? Any help in diagnosing the problem will be greatly appreciated. 
> 
> 
> The problem is between Mailman and the outgoing MTA (Postfix). What is
> in Mailman's 'smtp' and 'smtp-failure' logs and the Postfix logs?
> 
> Is the out queue backlogged? (see
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-August/052864.html>).

Thanks Mark. It was exactly as described in your post above. I 
unsubscribed a number of bouncing addresses and cleared the "out" queue 
  and things appear to be back to normal...

Thanks for your response,

Regards,

Hennie



From barry at python.org  Sun Sep 17 17:36:49 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:36:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Okay, first of all let's all take a deep breath.  This can be worked  
out.

Let me state up front that my general preference is always to allow  
the widest possible access to the Mailman and Python lists, and in  
general to all open source content.  I think it only helps our users  
- -- and yes, ourselves -- if we actively strive to tear down barriers  
to participation rather than build them.  Sometimes things conspire  
against us, like abuse by spammers of completely open lists, or the  
impolite behavior of some participants.  We have an obligation to  
balance our defenses against those abuses with our overriding mission  
to open things up as much as possible.

Sorry to rant, and I don't want to get too political, but this really  
is a wider issue in our society.  I strongly believe that more  
openness is good.  Some can argue that there is a place for secrecy,  
but if so then it must be deliberately narrowed as much as possible.   
I can see no argument for closing avenues of information in an open  
source project.  For me, this is deeply personal because if it  
weren't for the kindness and support of my users, I wouldn't be doing  
this.  It ain't for the money, I can tell you that. :)  In return, we  
give our users software when we can, but more importantly (IMO), we  
give them a community to be part of, to help each other out when  
we're stressed or unavailable.  Without that, our support line gets  
overwhelmed with requests, and that support line for Mailman often  
devolves to my personal email address.  That is not a good thing. :)

So.  I don't know Lars personally though I've had a few email  
interactions with him.  I don't know how Gmane is managed or  
administered.  I only know that I use it occasionally and I've always  
found it a useful and reliable service.  When I need it, I'm really  
glad it's there.

If they have procedures for adding mailing lists, those procedures  
should be followed.  If they weren't in the Mailman and Python list  
cases, then they should be.  I have absolutely no reason to believe  
there's anything malicious or nefarious going on.  To the extent that  
there are problems in their procedures, I think it's more likely that  
newbies screwed up or that overworked volunteers simply forgot or  
took shortcuts.  Who among us can't sympathize with that?

If I was aware of such problems in the past, I honestly don't  
remember -- I'll place the blame squarely on my overloaded brain, and  
age. :)   Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to  
get the lists on Gmane, including any back archives.

Jason, perhaps you can mediate here, since you seem to know both the  
Gmane and Mailman/Python organizations.  If the Gmane administrators  
make a formal request to the list owners of the Mailman and Python  
mailing lists that are missing, then my vote is to accept the offer,  
provide them with whatever they need, and get the newsgroups going.

- -Barry

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From jason at mastaler.com  Sun Sep 17 21:10:29 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 17 Sep 2006 19:10:29 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c132b3c4c29a@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>	<450C5313.508@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>	<450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com>
	<p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]> <450CE6EA.3080804@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c132b3c4c29a@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <450D9DA5.7040200@mastaler.com>

On 9/17/06 2:32 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> What parts of the Mailman community can only access this mailing list 
> (and the archives) via services like Gmane, as opposed to subscribing to 
> this mailing list, and reading our public archives that we maintain on 
> python.org and at mail-archive.com?

It's not what, but rather, how.  Reading mailing list archives from a 
web interface is neither convenient nor efficient.  Gmane offers them to 
readers via NNTP as well as RSS feeds, and has a real-time indexing 
search engine for each list, among many other features.  It's a 
wonderful service, you really should check it out sometime - 
http://gmane.org/


From benjamin at py-soft.co.uk  Mon Sep 18 00:51:35 2006
From: benjamin at py-soft.co.uk (Benjamin Donnachie)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 23:51:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
Message-ID: <450DD177.8000007@py-soft.co.uk>


I am using Mailman v2.1.6 and I was wondering whether it is possible to
have a different DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN per virtual host?

For my main site, example.com, I would like it to use https://%s/mailman
for the web interface, but for other sites I host, say example.net, to
use http://%s/mailman.

Take care,

Ben


From jeffrey at goldmark.org  Mon Sep 18 05:18:08 2006
From: jeffrey at goldmark.org (Jeffrey Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 22:18:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Matching mailman logs with MTA logs
Message-ID: <C8C64B37-7008-44E8-9D29-2780C2A5E860@goldmark.org>

I suspect that there is an easy way of doing this, but I've missed  
it.  I attempted to search for this, but just never got the right  
search terms to turn up anything useful.

I would like to be able to find the corresponding MTA (in my case  
Postfix) syslog entries for each entry in mailman's own smtp log.  I  
know that I can match up by time, but is there an easier and more  
reliable way?

Along the similar lines, I'm thinking about retaining the full  
headers of all subscription confirmation messages.  (I can easily  
deal with the ones that come in by HTTP separately).  Does anyone  
have any suggestions about how to do this?

I'm using

    Mailman 2.1.6
    Postfix 2.2.5
    Python  2.4.1
    SuSE    10.0

-j


-- 
Jeffrey Goldberg                        http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/



From jason at mastaler.com  Mon Sep 18 06:40:24 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 18 Sep 2006 04:40:24 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
Message-ID: <450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>

On 9/17/06 9:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to get the lists 
> on Gmane, including any back archives.
> 
> Jason, perhaps you can mediate here, since you seem to know both the 
> Gmane and Mailman/Python organizations.  If the Gmane administrators 
> make a formal request to the list owners of the Mailman and Python 
> mailing lists that are missing, then my vote is to accept the offer, 
> provide them with whatever they need, and get the newsgroups going.

Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
problem <wink>.  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above be 
sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you saying 
some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?

Thanks again.


From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Mon Sep 18 07:20:56 2006
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:20:56 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> On 9/17/06 9:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to get the lists 
>> on Gmane, including any back archives.
>>
>> Jason, perhaps you can mediate here, since you seem to know both the 
>> Gmane and Mailman/Python organizations.  If the Gmane administrators 
>> make a formal request to the list owners of the Mailman and Python 
>> mailing lists that are missing, then my vote is to accept the offer, 
>> provide them with whatever they need, and get the newsgroups going.
> 
> Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
> archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
> problem <wink>.  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above be 
> sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you saying 
> some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?
> 

Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
requests were rejected, IIRC.

-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/


From bretton at hivemind.net  Sun Sep 17 19:50:30 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:50:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
	<450C5313.508@mastaler.com>	<p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>
	<450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com> <p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <450D8AE6.5050300@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/17 07:32 AM:
> By rights, the listowner(s) should have the final say as to who is 
> allowed to see the archives of their list, who is allowed to 
> subscribe to their list, and who is allowed to post.  Period.

In 10 years of being online and being part of list-based communities I've 
gone through all the iterations of questioning the point above from the same 
perspective as the original poster for this thread to Brad's comments above 
and I can say without doubt now that the above is not merely an 
opinion-based point of view but a fundamental standard and policy guide for 
the successful use and growth of list-based communities.

Even the most open of lists require one or more parties to adopt the 
list-owner role and make decisions for the whole of the list that not 
everyone will like or agree with.

But continued use of a list (and associated growth in members) requires some 
semblance of order from a benevolent administrator role. In my experience to 
date what Brad's saying above is by far the most successful means of 
operating a list despite it's unpopularity at times. :-)

> In commercial circles, the kind of thing that they're doing is called 
> piracy -- they take someone else's content and repurpose that for 
> their own benefit and for the benefit of their customers.

And that's different from most newspapers how? <evil grin> Or any media 
enterprise for that matter. Piracy is one freedom you cannot curtail. But at 
the same time as mentioned above there are reasons for controlling who 
contributes and how content is managed.

> Okay, so Lars does not today make a profit running Gmane.  That 
> doesn't mean that tomorrow he won't change his mind, or "sell" the 
> business to someone else who will.

We have a problem here in terms of Data Retention laws. The only privacy 
protection we have is a clause in our constitution. We have no privacy laws 
or regulations to properly protect content or archived information -- 
legally required otherwise.

The only protection we have is the policies implemented by list-owners and 
the abiding by them of list members. In the truest sense, people governing 
themselves, assuming no bad apples involved. Exploitation of the system 
offers no recourse for when things go sour.

Netiquette is covered by some RFCs but list-etiquette is mostly a word of 
mouth exercise. It's best taught by example.

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"It is important to go through the steps to appreciate the impending 
apocalypse." - Astronomy Prof Balbus, discussing supernovas



From bretton at hivemind.net  Sun Sep 17 19:53:10 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:53:10 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450CE6EA.3080804@mastaler.com>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>	<450C5313.508@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c1324cd8a368@[10.0.1.4]>	<450CA3EC.6030901@mastaler.com>
	<p06240501c13289edf438@[10.0.1.4]> <450CE6EA.3080804@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <450D8B86.3030309@hivemind.net>

Jason R. Mastaler said the following on 2006/09/17 08:10 AM:
> If Gmane allows me and others to keep up with Barry's release
 > announcements for example in a convenient manner, I think that's a good 
thing.

What's preventing you from just subscribing to the announce list?


-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Historically speaking, the presence of wheels in Unix has never precluded 
their reinvention." - Larry Wall



From bretton at hivemind.net  Sun Sep 17 19:36:50 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:36:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <450D87B2.6080008@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/16 09:07 PM:
> The reason that they were removed from Gmane is that they tell us 
> they have a policy of always contacting the listowner to see if it's 
> okay for them to carry the list on their site

This is not the case with some lists on the server I admin. Industry 
specific lists were added without the consent of the domain owner or 
list-owner.

Additionally mail-archive.com has archived other lists without list-owner 
consent as well. Additionally their terms of service do not allow you to 
request the removal of the list only to prevent further archival by removing 
their archive address from the subscribers.

I'm making no comment on the ppl behind gmane etc as I don't know them 
personally enough to comment, and I applaud efforts at making archives of 
useful lists available in a standards compliant, easily-searchable format.

However I have nothing but criticism for the practise of making lists 
available online without list-owner's consent. It's as bad as forwarding 
posts from someone to a third-party list without the posters permission. 
Earlier this year this happened when someone's comments (said somewhat in 
jest) for forwarded to an enthusiasts forum as an example of hate speech 
type behaviour. This led to intimidating phone calls and allegedly death 
threats to the poster from individuals he didn't know at all who took his 
forwarded comments completely out of context.

It was a very sad week for the community network I look after. We've had 
people meet, get married and have kids because of the lists and the related 
communities. To see that abused in a negative manner was unacceptable and 
led to a lack of openness in new subscriptions meaning that now for some 
lists people have to be vetted and archives are completely banned.

Online means of archiving lists are useful -- don't get me wrong -- but some 
sense of polite protocol must be observed to prevent abuse. Besides, doesn't 
the mailman list already have an web-accessible archive front-end?

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"I want to suck the marrow from life. As a writer, experience is a feast you 
can gorge yourself on. Every moment is a kaliedascope of full-colour, 
surround-sound, haptic exposure to raw reality. Life V2.0 ... now with added 
zing (tm)" - BV



From jam at jamux.com  Mon Sep 18 15:37:01 2006
From: jam at jamux.com (John A. Martin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:37:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> (Tokio Kikuchi's message of
	"Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:20:56 +0900")
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com> <450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <878xkhgute.fsf@athene.jamux.com>

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From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 16:50:41 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:50:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <450EB241.3090706@equinephotoart.com>

Tokio Kikuchi wrote:

> Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
> request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
> requests were rejected, IIRC.

I'm not so sure we ever rejected a formal request.  IIRC, no formal 
request has ever been made.  Certainly I've never seen one come to the 
mailman-owners address.  And there lies the crux of the problem.

jc - mailman-users list admin



From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 16:55:37 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:55:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
Message-ID: <450EB369.7070306@equinephotoart.com>

Barry Warsaw wrote:

> If I was aware of such problems in the past, I honestly don't  
> remember -- I'll place the blame squarely on my overloaded brain, and  
> age. :)   Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to  
> get the lists on Gmane, including any back archives.

The problem is that Gmane violated both their own policies (to contact 
list owners before adding lists) and their agreement with us to not 
archive mailman lists.

	I simply don't trust them.

This problem surfaced when I found a "virgin" address of mine receiving 
spam.  I had just that newly created address to subscribe and post to a 
mailman list.  How had spammers found it so fast?  A quick google found 
that my address had been leaked straight to usenet by gmane.

1)  They didn't contact the list owner for permission before archiving 
the list.

2)  They didn't munge email addresses before posting the list messages 
to usenet.

They seem to have fixed problem #2, but problem #1 remains.  How hard is 
it to follow their OWN policy and contact a list's owner before adding 
it to their gateway?  This is basic netiquette.  Yet they don't seem 
able to comply with it.

Taking a fresh look, it looks like they are STILL unable (or unwilling) 
to comply with this.  And that's the crux of the matter.

Ask me if you can borrow my car, and I might say yes and give you the 
keys.  Take my car without asking, that's theft.

Ask me if I want to have sex, and I might say yes!  Try to have sex with 
me without my permission, that's rape.

Ask me if you can mirror/gateway a list I administer, I might say yes. 
Mirror or gateway it without permission (especially when your OWN policy 
says you ask first) and it is a netiquette violation and a copyright 
violation.  Not as bad as car theft or rape, but it's still a matter of 
taking something without permission, and it's still wrong.

IMHO we should not let Gmane mirror the mailman lists until they FIX 
their subscription process to ensure that they have the list owner's 
permission *before* they add the list to their gateway.  If we don't 
maintain this policy, we are endorsing what they do (adding without 
getting permission) and that's just wrong.

jc




From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 16:30:37 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:30:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <450C42CC.2010202@mastaler.com>
	<p06240500c131fad76b35@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <450EAD8D.70703@equinephotoart.com>

Brad Knowles wrote:

> I try very hard to "never say never", but I cannot imagine a 
> circumstance were we would possibly ever trust them to carry any 
> Mailman or Python-related content.

I *can* imagine - it could (perhaps) happen when they actually follow 
their stated policy and contact a list owner to confirm that the list 
owner approved of the list being mirrored on gmane.  Something that has 
not happened even ONCE WRT the mailman lists.

Until gmane starts following their own rules, we can't trust them.

jc



From jason at mastaler.com  Mon Sep 18 17:35:38 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 18 Sep 2006 15:35:38 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <878xkhgute.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <878xkhgute.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
Message-ID: <450EBCCA.4010607@mastaler.com>

On 9/18/06 7:37 AM, John A. Martin wrote:
> Unless I am missing something, the form at
> <http://gmane.org/subscribe.php> does not include a place for the
> list-owner address.  It sees to me therefore unrealistic to expect the
> Gmane administrator to contact the list-owner but rather the the
> person submitting the request ("Your email address" on the form) if
> there are any questions.  For this reason I suggest to owners of lists
> with public archives under my purview that they might be well advised
> to subscribe their lists to Gmane themselves rather than wait for
> someone else to do it and get the name wrong or otherwise raise havoc.

Although when the lists are added to Gmane, an auto-generated notice 
*is* sent to the list-owner address explaining what has happened and 
giving them the option to easily opt-out by replying to the notice. 
It's possible in the Mailman case that there was some technicality that 
prevented this notice from being sent, or that the people raising havoc 
about this issue here weren't MM list-owners when the lists were first 
added to Gmane (years ago), and therefore didn't get the notice.


From jason at mastaler.com  Mon Sep 18 17:41:07 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: 18 Sep 2006 15:41:07 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com> <450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <450EBE13.8050908@mastaler.com>

On 9/17/06 11:20 PM, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
>> Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
>> archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
>> problem <wink>.  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above 
>> be sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you 
>> saying some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?
>>
> 
> Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
> request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
> requests were rejected, IIRC.

Yes I read that, but it seems pointless to me since Barry has also 
clearly stated he approves of the lists being added.  Like I said, when 
the lists are added, the list-owner address will be notified, as that is 
the normal procedure.  Is this sufficient?



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 17:42:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:42:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
In-Reply-To: <450DD177.8000007@py-soft.co.uk>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609180842500250f8be6f8c@msapiro>

Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
>
>I am using Mailman v2.1.6 and I was wondering whether it is possible to
>have a different DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN per virtual host?


Not without running a different copy of Mailman for the different hosts.


>For my main site, example.com, I would like it to use https://%s/mailman
>for the web interface, but for other sites I host, say example.net, to
>use http://%s/mailman.


DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN is used both at list creation time to create the
list's web_page_url attribute and it is also used by a utility
function that returns various URLs when the function is called without
a web_page_url argument.

Were it not for the second usage, you could simply set (or default)

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'

and then use bin/withlist or bin/config_list to set web_page_url to
'https://example.com/mailman/' for the lists in the example.com
domain. However, because of the second usage of DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN,
this will only be partially (and not very) effective.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stefan at gabox.de  Mon Sep 18 18:03:03 2006
From: stefan at gabox.de (Stefan Grote)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:03:03 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
Message-ID: <450EC337.9030301@gabox.de>

Hi guys,

after a new mailman install via apt on an Debian system i?'am getting
the following errors:

Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited,
but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.

okay, but my Mailman error log is empty and my apache logs are empty too.

what is now to do to solve the problem?

Thanks!

Stefan Grote.



From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 18:13:51 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:13:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450EBCCA.4010607@mastaler.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
	<878xkhgute.fsf@athene.jamux.com> <450EBCCA.4010607@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <450EC5BF.6030308@equinephotoart.com>

Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

> Although when the lists are added to Gmane, an auto-generated notice 
> *is* sent to the list-owner address explaining what has happened and 
> giving them the option to easily opt-out by replying to the notice. 
> It's possible in the Mailman case that there was some technicality that 
> prevented this notice from being sent, or that the people raising havoc 
> about this issue here weren't MM list-owners when the lists were first 
> added to Gmane (years ago), and therefore didn't get the notice.

1)  We have never received any such notice.  I was one of the MM 
list-owners the first and second times this came around.

2)  Opt-out is wrong.  It might, possibly, be not too terribly wrong if 
that were the only thing they did/do wrong, but unfortunately it's just 
the nth instance of them doing something wrong.

jc








From jam at jamux.com  Mon Sep 18 18:22:37 2006
From: jam at jamux.com (John A. Martin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:22:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450EB369.7070306@equinephotoart.com> (JC Dill's message of "Mon, 
	18 Sep 2006 07:55:37 -0700")
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450EB369.7070306@equinephotoart.com>
Message-ID: <87wt81f8ky.fsf@athene.jamux.com>

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From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 18:26:51 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:26:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450EBE13.8050908@mastaler.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <450EBE13.8050908@mastaler.com>
Message-ID: <450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>

Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> On 9/17/06 11:20 PM, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
>>> Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
>>> archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
>>> problem <wink>.  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above 
>>> be sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you 
>>> saying some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?
>>>
>> Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
>> request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
>> requests were rejected, IIRC.
> 
> Yes I read that, but it seems pointless to me since Barry has also 
> clearly stated he approves of the lists being added.  Like I said, when 
> the lists are added, the list-owner address will be notified, as that is 
> the normal procedure.  Is this sufficient?

While Barry is the primary developer and primary list owner, he does NOT 
manage these lists alone.  Many of you may be unaware that Brad Knowles 
and I have been doing almost all of the list management in recent years. 
  Brad and I are both against adding mailman to gmane for a number of 
reasons.  Here are 2 of my reasons (Brad may have others):

1)  Gmane has been a PITA from day one because they don't follow their 
own policies.  (Read the archives for all the details.)  I don't trust 
them.  Who knows what they will do in the future without notifying us?

2)  Even if Gmane wasn't a PITA, there are increased problems with 
managing a list when it's gatewayed to usenet.  (Example - allowing 
posts from non-subscribers.  Either we end up with thread fragmentations 
where some people get the non-member posts and others don't, or the list 
managers have to deal with non-member posts being gatewayed back to the 
list.)  We are busy enough as it is when we manage it as just a mailing 
list.

If Barry wants to let the list be gatewayed to gmane and usenet over our 
objections, he is certainly entitled to do that.  It will also mean that 
he will need new people to help manage the various lists that Brad and I 
help manage because I'm with Brad on this - gateway to gmane without 
even asking my opinion and I'm no longer interested in helping manage 
the list.  We (the people on mailman-users-owner who do the lion's share 
of the work in managing the lists) deserve to be consulted and have our 
opinions heard on this matter.

jc




From jimpop at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 18:27:41 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:27:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450EC5BF.6030308@equinephotoart.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
	<878xkhgute.fsf@athene.jamux.com> <450EBCCA.4010607@mastaler.com>
	<450EC5BF.6030308@equinephotoart.com>
Message-ID: <1158596861.22075.4.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 09:13 -0700, JC Dill wrote:
> 1)  We have never received any such notice.  I was one of the MM 
> list-owners the first and second times this came around.
> 
> 2)  Opt-out is wrong.  It might, possibly, be not too terribly wrong if 
> that were the only thing they did/do wrong, but unfortunately it's just 
> the nth instance of them doing something wrong.

So.... why can't someone *help* gmane and Lars (who does seem like a
nice guy), to better understand what we think he should be doing.   It
sounds like people here have the advice they need, unfortunately it just
seems to me that a few people are sitting back from the edge shooting
arrows rather than trying to help bridge the impasse.

-Jim P.





From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 18:41:30 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:41:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <87wt81f8ky.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450EB369.7070306@equinephotoart.com>
	<87wt81f8ky.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
Message-ID: <450ECC39.3080904@equinephotoart.com>

John A. Martin wrote:
>     JC> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>     >> If I was aware of such problems in the past, I honestly don't
>     >> remember -- I'll place the blame squarely on my overloaded
>     >> brain, and age. :) Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do
>     >> what we can to get the lists on Gmane, including any back
>     >> archives.
>
>     JC> This problem surfaced when I found a "virgin" address of mine
>     JC> receiving spam.  I had just that newly created address to
>     JC> subscribe and post to a mailman list.  How had spammers found
>     JC> it so fast?  A quick google found that my address had been
>     JC> leaked straight to usenet by gmane.
>
> Please explain how you think Gmane leaked anything straight to Usenet.
> Gmane is NOT connected with Usenet!
>   
I mis-remembered, it leaked my (previously un-known and unspammed) email 
address onto the web, not onto usenet.
>     JC> Ask me if you can borrow my car, and I might say yes and give
>     JC> you the keys.  Take my car without asking, that's theft.
>
> Gmane subscribes to lists.  When the list accepts the subscription has
> not the list said yes and given the keys in your analogy?
>   
The list subscription policy is that it is not OK to setup a public 
archive without specific permission.  When a subscription request is 
accepted the list server is saying "yes" to personal archives, and "no" 
to public archives without specific permission.  Gmane ignores this 
distinction.

jc




From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 19:01:43 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:01:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <1158596861.22075.4.camel@localhost>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>	<878xkhgute.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
	<450EBCCA.4010607@mastaler.com>	<450EC5BF.6030308@equinephotoart.com>
	<1158596861.22075.4.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <450ED0F7.5010106@equinephotoart.com>

Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 09:13 -0700, JC Dill wrote:
>> 1)  We have never received any such notice.  I was one of the MM 
>> list-owners the first and second times this came around.
>> 
>> 2)  Opt-out is wrong.  It might, possibly, be not too terribly
>> wrong if that were the only thing they did/do wrong, but
>> unfortunately it's just the nth instance of them doing something
>> wrong.
> 
> So.... why can't someone *help* gmane and Lars (who does seem like a 
> nice guy), to better understand what we think he should be doing.
> It sounds like people here have the advice they need, unfortunately
> it just seems to me that a few people are sitting back from the edge
> shooting arrows rather than trying to help bridge the impasse.

We tried.  He said "Oh, OK, I'll do that then" (e.g. make sure
Gmane has list owner permission before adding a list) but then it
doesn't get done.  From the Gmane FAQ:

> # I'm a list administrator, and I don't think you should archive my
> list. No problem. Just send a mail to Lars, and he'll remove the
> list.
> 
> # ...and the reason I want to remove the list is that I don't want
> unsubscribed people to be able to post to the list. Usenet sucks. 
> True, but the Gmane can make the group read-only, and that way Gmane
> won't try to be a bidirectional gateway for your list.
> 
> # Ok, but I still want to remove the list, because I don't want
> address harvesters to be able to grab email addresses. Have you
> considered whether the list could still be carried by Gmane, but with
> address encryption switched on?
> 
> # I just don't want to, ok? Quit harassing me, or I'll beat you to a
> pulp! Sure, no problem. It's your list.

Yet, the mailman-users list was added to Gmane a second time AFTER we 
had asked that it be removed and *not ever added back in again*. 
Clearly, he is not following his own policy.

If you want to hold Lars' hand until he gets it done right, be my guest! 
  I'm sure that his service could be really useful at some point, but 
IMHO it's not at that point YET.  He needs to fix the problems we 
brought up the first and second times mailman was added to Gmane.  The 
"address encryption" mentioned in the FAQ (quoted above) was not present 
the first time mailman was added.  If it had been present and Gmane 
hadn't been explicitly responsible for directly leaking email addresses 
to spammers we might have had a different outcome to Mailman-users being 
added to Gmane.  So, that problem was fixed (at some point, after it 
caused harm) but the subscription permission problem has NOT been fixed.

Gmane's subscription process is fraught with problems because it diverts 
responsibility from Gmane to ask permission onto the person submitting 
("Please do not subscribe lists that don't want to be carried by 
Gmane.") and onto the list owner (to "opt out").

	This is a broken process.

We don't allow individuals to be added to a mailing list this way!  Why 
should we allow a mailing list to be added to a public archive this way?

The correct process is for Gmane to ensure that Gmane HAS permission 
before adding a list.  The process for adding a list should include the 
list *owner* being contacted and asked to confirm that it is OK to add 
the list to Gmane's public archives *before* it is added.

jc


From jason at mastaler.com  Mon Sep 18 19:39:59 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:39:59 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <450EBE13.8050908@mastaler.com>
	<450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>
Message-ID: <450ED9EF.3020708@mastaler.com>

On 9/18/06 10:26 AM, JC Dill wrote:
> 2)  Even if Gmane wasn't a PITA, there are increased problems with 
> managing a list when it's gatewayed to usenet.  

Gmane is not a Usenet gateway.  Please see http://gmane.org/ for more 
about what Gmane is and is not.


From jason at mastaler.com  Mon Sep 18 19:45:03 2006
From: jason at mastaler.com (Jason R. Mastaler)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:45:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <450EBE13.8050908@mastaler.com>
	<450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>
Message-ID: <450EDB1F.2040307@mastaler.com>

On 9/18/06 10:26 AM, JC Dill wrote:
> If Barry wants to let the list be gatewayed to gmane and usenet over our 
> objections, he is certainly entitled to do that.  It will also mean that 
> he will need new people to help manage the various lists that Brad and I 
> help manage because I'm with Brad on this - gateway to gmane without 
> even asking my opinion and I'm no longer interested in helping manage 
> the list.  We (the people on mailman-users-owner who do the lion's share 
> of the work in managing the lists) deserve to be consulted and have our 
> opinions heard on this matter.

For now, what about mailman-announce?  Since it's a read-only list, it 
doesn't pose any of the problems you've brought up with non-subscribers 
and the like.  Until you guys and Barry work out what you want to do 
with mailman-uses and the other lists, is it okay if mailman-announce is 
added to Gmane?


From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Mon Sep 18 19:58:43 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:58:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restrict subsribers to my.domain.com
Message-ID: <98a90c220609181058i7095af39r17dc1e0eb8910c19@mail.gmail.com>

Hello folks,

Is it possible to restrict subsribers to only those with email my.domain.com
?
I have am maintaining a company internal mail-list, and do not want to allow
subscibers outside the company.

Please let me know how this can be done in mailman.

Thanks
Tom


From barry at python.org  Mon Sep 18 20:00:01 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:00:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <450EBE13.8050908@mastaler.com>
	<450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>
Message-ID: <B11A6FA0-CD21-457F-BD9D-F32D7592DFDE@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sep 18, 2006, at 12:26 PM, JC Dill wrote:

> If Barry wants to let the list be gatewayed to gmane and usenet  
> over our objections, he is certainly entitled to do that.  It will  
> also mean that he will need new people to help manage the various  
> lists that Brad and I help manage because I'm with Brad on this -  
> gateway to gmane without even asking my opinion and I'm no longer  
> interested in helping manage the list.  We (the people on mailman- 
> users-owner who do the lion's share of the work in managing the  
> lists) deserve to be consulted and have our opinions heard on this  
> matter.

JC (and Brad) are absolutely right, and I hereby publicly apologize  
for usurping their roles.  I highly value both their contributions as  
list managers, and since both are opposed to gatewaying to Gmane  
under the current conditions, I retract my earlier endorsement.

I think that if Gmane were to address the issues that Brad and JC  
have raised about their operations, then it would be worth  
reconsidering.  I'll leave the final decision up to them and won't  
stick my nose in unless specifically asked to (and even then, not  
until the current bleeding stops :).  I don't expect them to lobby  
Gmane to address their complaints, but perhaps those of you who would  
like to see Gmane gateways for the Mailman lists can forward those  
concerns on to Lars and company.

On a personal note, I've re-enabled my subscription to mailman-users  
after a very long hiatus.  I still don't expect to be able to keep up  
with the traffic, so I'll mostly lurk unless there's some specific  
issue that I think needs a definitive pronouncement.  And next time,  
I'll try harder not to be a dumbass. ;)

- -Barry

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From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 19:59:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:59:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <450EC337.9030301@gabox.de>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181059500968f471fb7a@msapiro>

Stefan Grote wrote:
>
>okay, but my Mailman error log is empty and my apache logs are empty too.


This can happen for a few reasons, but the most likely is a syntax
error in mm_cfg.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From benjamin at py-soft.co.uk  Mon Sep 18 20:16:37 2006
From: benjamin at py-soft.co.uk (Benjamin Donnachie)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:16:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
Message-ID: <72a0601a28480510857f7d0b6b11d934@www.py-soft.co.uk>

Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote: 
>Not without running a different copy of Mailman for the different hosts.

I thought that might be the case.  Guess I'll just move back to http:// 
globally.

Thanks for your help! :)


-- 
Benjamin




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Sep 18 20:24:19 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:24:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
In-Reply-To: <72a0601a28480510857f7d0b6b11d934@www.py-soft.co.uk>
References: <72a0601a28480510857f7d0b6b11d934@www.py-soft.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060918112051.06679ed8@crimson-dragon.com>

Benjamin Donnachie sent the message below at 11:16 9/18/2006:
>Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> >Not without running a different copy of Mailman for the different hosts.
>
>I thought that might be the case.  Guess I'll just move back to http://
>globally.
>
>Thanks for your help! :)
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Is there some reason you would not want to run https on all of the lists?

Yes, it does have a bit more overhead to set up and use the secure 
connection, but it isn't that much really and should not make a 
significant impact on serving the pages unless your server is very 
heavily loaded.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tlist at wheelockweb.com  Mon Sep 18 20:08:31 2006
From: tlist at wheelockweb.com (Tobey Wheelock)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:08:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Topics regex
Message-ID: <20060918180831.GI2473@wanderer.wheelockweb.com>

I am having trouble getting my topics regex to handle replies to a topic.

The list identifier is [Rappnet]

Any of the following keywords are supposed to trigger the topic:
Loc:
Loc.
Local:
Local.
The keywords are supposed to precede the Subject, e.g. 
Subject: Loc: Test

This is my regex:
^(Re: \[Rappnet\] )?Loc(al)?[:.]

It catches the initial posts but not the replies.

Can anybody help?

Tobey Wheelock


From jeffrey at goldmark.org  Mon Sep 18 20:35:15 2006
From: jeffrey at goldmark.org (Jeffrey Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:35:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060918112051.06679ed8@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <72a0601a28480510857f7d0b6b11d934@www.py-soft.co.uk>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060918112051.06679ed8@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <682016FB-DBCA-4EB1-96A4-C7CA0B4929A4@goldmark.org>

On Sep 18, 2006, at 1:24 PM, Dragon wrote:

> Is there some reason you would not want to run https on all of the  
> lists?

I can't speak for the original poster, but in my case it is a  
question of which domains I'm willing to get site certificates for.

-j




From phanh at canby.k12.or.us  Mon Sep 18 19:55:05 2006
From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:55:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extract members fullname
Message-ID: <45EB0671-B4B8-410A-B3FD-0B2A7A933A88@canby.k12.or.us>

Hi, all.

Is there a way to extract members list with their fullname?
Used /usr/share/mailman/bin/list_members to extract the list of  
emails, but would like to know how to extract with fullnames.

Thank you very much,






From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Mon Sep 18 20:42:57 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:42:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
Message-ID: <450EE8B1.6040400@ncmail.net>

I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I 
try to do:
   //add user to Admin email list
   $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." admins";
   system($command, $status);

I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  I've 
tried:
   shell_exec($command);
as well but it didn't work either.  I can successfully call these 
functions from my old perl scripts, so I don't think it's a permissions 
issue.  I think I must be missing something in the php.  This may be a 
little out of the scope of this list, but any help would be appreciated.

-- 
Anne 



From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Mon Sep 18 20:46:15 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:46:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <B11A6FA0-CD21-457F-BD9D-F32D7592DFDE@python.org>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>	<450E2338.3050700@mastaler.com>
	<450E2CB8.20807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <450EBE13.8050908@mastaler.com>
	<450EC8CB.1020609@equinephotoart.com>
	<B11A6FA0-CD21-457F-BD9D-F32D7592DFDE@python.org>
Message-ID: <450EE977.3050909@equinephotoart.com>

Barry Warsaw wrote:
>  
> I think that if Gmane were to address the issues that Brad and JC have 
> raised about their operations, then it would be worth reconsidering.
+1

:-)

jc


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Sep 18 21:02:12 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <450EE8B1.6040400@ncmail.net>
References: <450EE8B1.6040400@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060918115300.066739d8@crimson-dragon.com>

Anne Ramey wrote:
>I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I
>try to do:
>    //add user to Admin email list
>    $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." admins";
>    system($command, $status);
>
>I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  I've
>tried:
>    shell_exec($command);
>as well but it didn't work either.  I can successfully call these
>functions from my old perl scripts, so I don't think it's a permissions
>issue.  I think I must be missing something in the php.  This may be a
>little out of the scope of this list, but any help would be appreciated.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

This is slightly off-topic but I am sure there are other users out 
there who also use PHP for web scripting to interface to mailman (I 
do on my system, I am far more comfortable with it than Python).

This sounds like PHP is being run in safe mode and the scripts you 
are trying to run are not allowed under the permitted safe-mode 
commands. Safe mode is often enabled by ISPs running servers that 
host virtual domains to prevent users from doing malicious and/or 
negligent things that can damage the file hierarchy or compromise 
sensitive system information. Chapter 9 of the PHP manual describes 
safe mode and how it works.

If you have error reporting to the browser turned off, you will need 
to look in the HTTP server error log to see if PHP is complaining 
about something. You might have to boost the error-reporting level in 
your PHP script using the error_reporting function in your script to 
get the level of detail you need.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 21:29:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 12:29:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extract members fullname
In-Reply-To: <45EB0671-B4B8-410A-B3FD-0B2A7A933A88@canby.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181229310937faf27228@msapiro>

Hung Phan wrote:
>
>Is there a way to extract members list with their fullname?
>Used /usr/share/mailman/bin/list_members to extract the list of  
>emails, but would like to know how to extract with fullnames.


Yes.

See

/usr/share/mailman/bin/list_members --help

to find out how.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Mon Sep 18 22:06:37 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:06:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060918115300.066739d8@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <450EE8B1.6040400@ncmail.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060918115300.066739d8@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <450EFC4D.5060104@ncmail.net>



Dragon wrote:
> Anne Ramey wrote:
>> I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I
>> try to do:
>>    //add user to Admin email list
>>    $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." 
>> admins";
>>    system($command, $status);
>>
>> I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  I've
>> tried:
>>    shell_exec($command);
>> as well but it didn't work either.  I can successfully call these
>> functions from my old perl scripts, so I don't think it's a permissions
>> issue.  I think I must be missing something in the php.  This may be a
>> little out of the scope of this list, but any help would be appreciated.
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
> This is slightly off-topic but I am sure there are other users out 
> there who also use PHP for web scripting to interface to mailman (I do 
> on my system, I am far more comfortable with it than Python).
>
> This sounds like PHP is being run in safe mode and the scripts you are 
> trying to run are not allowed under the permitted safe-mode commands. 
> Safe mode is often enabled by ISPs running servers that host virtual 
> domains to prevent users from doing malicious and/or negligent things 
> that can damage the file hierarchy or compromise sensitive system 
> information. Chapter 9 of the PHP manual describes safe mode and how 
> it works.
>
> If you have error reporting to the browser turned off, you will need 
> to look in the HTTP server error log to see if PHP is complaining 
> about something. You might have to boost the error-reporting level in 
> your PHP script using the error_reporting function in your script to 
> get the level of detail you need.
>
> Dragon
>
My safe_mode is Off.  There are no errors in my http log and none output 
to the screen.  I can run other commands with system and 
shell_exec...just not any mailman commands.

Anne


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 22:10:49 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:10:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Topics regex
In-Reply-To: <20060918180831.GI2473@wanderer.wheelockweb.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181310490781faf2719e@msapiro>

Tobey Wheelock wrote: 
>Subject: Loc: Test
>
>This is my regex:
>^(Re: \[Rappnet\] )?Loc(al)?[:.]
>
>It catches the initial posts but not the replies.

It's not documented, but Topic regexps are compiled in VERBOSE mode
which means that unescaped whitespace outside of character classes is
ignored. This and other issues with Topic regexps are fixed for
Mailman 2.2, but for now, you need your regexp to be

^(Re:\ \[Rappnet\]\ )?Loc(al)?[:.]

however you will still have issues with subjects like

Re: Re: [Rappnet] Local: something

Re: Fwd: [Rappnet] Local: something

Re(2): [Rappnet] Local: something

and so forth.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Mon Sep 18 22:13:57 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:13:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Topics regex
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609181310490781faf2719e@msapiro>
References: <20060918180831.GI2473@wanderer.wheelockweb.com>
	<PC1760200609181310490781faf2719e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609181313n3a8b9dbfnbdbac5f759d02d79@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/18/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:

> It's not documented, but Topic regexps are compiled in VERBOSE mode
> which means that unescaped whitespace outside of character classes is
> ignored. This and other issues with Topic regexps are fixed for
> Mailman 2.2,

By "fixed", do you mean the behavior is now documented?  Or that they
won't be compiled in VERBOSE mode?  (Off-hand either seems reasonable,
though I suspect most people are more used to the mode where
whitespace is treated verbatim.)
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Sep 18 22:11:15 2006
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:11:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce scores
Message-ID: <20060918201115.GA31404@fmp.com>

I just received a message via one of my list admins from a subscriber who was 
unsubscribed from a list based on a bounce from last year.  The subscriber got 
a message with the following:

> Your membership in the mailing list ..... has been disabled
> due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
> 12-Mar-2005.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
> you re-enable your membership.

Indeed, if I use dbdump to look at the config.pck for the list I see _many_ 
entries such as the following:

		       '[address_redacted]': <bounce info for member 
[address_redacted]
	current score: 2.0
	last bounce date: (2005, 2, 17)
	email notices left: 3
	last notice date: (1970, 1, 1)
	confirmation cookie: None


I notice two things about these.  First, the last bounce date is _way_ in the 
past, even though bounce_info_stale_after is set to 12 days.  The second is 
that the last notice date is bogus.  Mailman _is_ resetting bounce information 
since I get many notices such as the following in my mailman logs:

Sep 18 12:05:24 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce info, resetting
Sep 18 13:15:55 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce info, resetting
Sep 18 13:32:43 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce info, resetting

... so it looks as if bounce counts _are_ getting reset.

This list has been ongoing for a long time, and the entire list was moved to a 
new server early this year and has been functioning normally otherwise.  I 
suspect that these database entries may have gotten crosswise of a mailman 
version upgrade, of which there have been several since the list was moved to 
mailman.

Can anyone tell me how I can straighten this out and get the mechanics of 
bounce processing working properly?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Fighting against human |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |    creativity is like   |      available at
512-259-1190          |    trying to eradicate  | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |        dandelions"      |
                      |      (Pamela Jones)     |


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 22:19:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:19:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <450EFC4D.5060104@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>

Anne Ramey wrote:

>>> I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I
>>> try to do:
>>>    //add user to Admin email list
>>>    $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." 
>>> admins";
>>>    system($command, $status);
>>>
>>> I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  
and:

>My safe_mode is Off.  There are no errors in my http log and none output 
>to the screen.  I can run other commands with system and 
>shell_exec...just not any mailman commands.


Are you sure you're executing the command as the mailman group?

Try

chmod g+s /usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members

and see if that helps. If it does, the problem is with the group
executing the command.

You don't want to leave add_members as SETGID if non Mailman admins
have shell access to your box as SETGID will allow anyone to
successfully run the command.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 22:24:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:24:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Topics regex
In-Reply-To: <34a783b20609181313n3a8b9dbfnbdbac5f759d02d79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181324030421d8fd5ca8@msapiro>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>By "fixed", do you mean the behavior is now documented?  Or that they
>won't be compiled in VERBOSE mode?  (Off-hand either seems reasonable,
>though I suspect most people are more used to the mode where
>whitespace is treated verbatim.)


I mean (from the 2.2 NEWS file)
<quote>
The processing of Topics regular expressions has changed. Previously
the Topics regexp was compiled in verbose mode but not documented as
such which caused some confusion.  Also, the documentation indicated
that topic keywords could be entered one per line, but these entries
were not handled properly.  Topics regexps are now compiled in
non-verbose mode and multi-line entries are 'ored'.  Existing Topics
regexps will be converted when the list is updated so they will
continue to work.
</quote>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Mon Sep 18 22:25:32 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:25:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restrict subsribers to my.domain.com
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609181208330140eb88c4cd@msapiro>
References: <98a90c220609181058i7095af39r17dc1e0eb8910c19@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200609181208330140eb88c4cd@msapiro>
Message-ID: <98a90c220609181325k1507fe81n4e94e75f80f87a39@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Sweer! It works very well.

Thanks
Tom

On 9/18/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> >
> >Is it possible to restrict subsribers to only those with email
> my.domain.com
>
>
> You can't do it completely automatically, but you can do it.
>
> You first need to patch Mailman with the patch at
> <
> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=403066&group_id=103&atid=350103
> >
> (possibly modified for your installed version). This patch adds a
> subscribe_auto_approval list to the Privacy options...->Subscription
> rules page. (Or you can waiut for Mailman 2.2 which will contain this
> feature.)
>
> Then you set subscribe_policy to "Require approval" and put the reqular
> expression
>
> ^.*@my\.example\.com$
>
> in the subscribe_auto_approval list. Then subscription requests from
> the my.example.com domain will all be automatically approved and those
> from other domains will be held and can be rejected by the moderator.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Sep 18 22:41:00 2006
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:41:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <450EFC4D.5060104@ncmail.net>
References: <450EE8B1.6040400@ncmail.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060918115300.066739d8@crimson-dragon.com>
	<450EFC4D.5060104@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <20060918204100.GB31404@fmp.com>

Thus spake Anne Ramey on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:06:37PM CDT
> 
> 
> Dragon wrote:
> > Anne Ramey wrote:
> >> I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I
> >> try to do:
> >>    //add user to Admin email list
> >>    $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." 
> >> admins";
> >>    system($command, $status);
> >>
> >> I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  I've
> >> tried:
> >>    shell_exec($command);
> >> as well but it didn't work either.  I can successfully call these
> >> functions from my old perl scripts, so I don't think it's a permissions
> >> issue.

A better look at the permissions issue here would be helpful, since that's the 
first thing one ought to eliminate.  I guess that we can assume you're running 
this on a 'nix-like OS since you mention permissions.  Make sure that 
/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members has either world read and execute 
permissions, or group read and execute permissions (dicey from a security 
standpoint) or that the web server user is a member of group "mailman" (or 
whatever group your mailman is installed as) and that group read and execute 
permissions are turned on.  

If permissions are an issue, there may be other mailman components called into 
the process by add_members which may also need permissions adjusted.  If I run 
system executables from a web page using PHP I generally do so via a compiled 
setuid wrapper script which allows execution of the system command as a 
priveleged user, or in your case as the mailman user.  This avoids all such 
problems.  My wrapper program is written in C and has a bunch of security 
checks built into it, and you can obfusticate it in a number of ways so that 
it's pretty well inaccessable to a would-be troublemaker.

Another possible tool here would be to use passthru() instead of system() which 
will allow any output from $command to be displayed.  Another might be to set 
$command to point to a shell script which will run add_members, which will 
allow you to redirect stdout and stderr appropriately.

> >> I think I must be missing something in the php.  This may be a
> >> little out of the scope of this list, but any help would be appreciated.
> > ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
> >
> > This is slightly off-topic but I am sure there are other users out 
> > there who also use PHP for web scripting to interface to mailman (I do 
> > on my system, I am far more comfortable with it than Python).
> >
> > This sounds like PHP is being run in safe mode and the scripts you are 
> > trying to run are not allowed under the permitted safe-mode commands. 
> > Safe mode is often enabled by ISPs running servers that host virtual 
> > domains to prevent users from doing malicious and/or negligent things 
> > that can damage the file hierarchy or compromise sensitive system 
> > information. Chapter 9 of the PHP manual describes safe mode and how 
> > it works.
> >
> > If you have error reporting to the browser turned off, you will need 
> > to look in the HTTP server error log to see if PHP is complaining 
> > about something. You might have to boost the error-reporting level in 
> > your PHP script using the error_reporting function in your script to 
> > get the level of detail you need.
> >
> > Dragon
> >
> My safe_mode is Off.  There are no errors in my http log and none output 
> to the screen.  I can run other commands with system and 
> shell_exec...just not any mailman commands.
> 
> Anne
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Fighting against human |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |    creativity is like   |      available at
512-259-1190          |    trying to eradicate  | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |        dandelions"      |
                      |      (Pamela Jones)     |


From robertj at linux4free.com  Mon Sep 18 22:56:31 2006
From: robertj at linux4free.com (Rob Jackson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:56:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list
Message-ID: <200609182056.k8IKuPsm021761@resources.rootsweb.com>

I need to create an announce only list, where people can subscribe, but they
cannot post.  I also have other lists that I will need to create continually
that will not be this way.
 
Is there a bit I can set for this list only so the subscribers cannot post.
 
Thanks
-Rob
 


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Sep 18 22:59:39 2006
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:59:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
Message-ID: <20060918205939.GC30254@fmp.com>

Thus spake Lindsay Haisley on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:41:00PM CDT
> this on a 'nix-like OS since you mention permissions.  Make sure that 
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members has either world read and execute 
> permissions, or group read and execute permissions (dicey from a security 
> standpoint) 

Sorry, I mis-spoke here!  I meant that setting world read and execute 
permissions is dicey from a security standpoint!

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Fighting against human |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |    creativity is like   |      available at
512-259-1190          |    trying to eradicate  | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |        dandelions"      |
                      |      (Pamela Jones)     |


From ki at knifecenter.com  Mon Sep 18 23:04:55 2006
From: ki at knifecenter.com (Ki Song)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:04:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list
In-Reply-To: <200609182056.k8IKuPsm021761@resources.rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <C1348237.354F5%ki@knifecenter.com>



> From: "Rob Jackson" <robertj at linux4free.com>
> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:56:31 -0600
> To: <mailman-users at python.org>
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list
> 
> I need to create an announce only list, where people can subscribe, but they
> cannot post.  I also have other lists that I will need to create continually
> that will not be this way.
> 
> Is there a bit I can set for this list only so the subscribers cannot post.
> 
> Thanks
> -Rob

I don't know if there is a bit you can set for it, but you can set the list
so that it is an announce only list in the administration interface
(web-based).

Basically, you only let messages that are "approved" by the moderator to be
allowed to be sent to the list.

That is exactly how I use this list as a newsletter, or, in your words, an
announce only list.

Regards,
Ki



From jam at jamux.com  Mon Sep 18 23:09:03 2006
From: jam at jamux.com (John A. Martin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:09:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <450ECC39.3080904@equinephotoart.com> (JC Dill's message of "Mon, 
	18 Sep 2006 09:41:30 -0700")
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450EB369.7070306@equinephotoart.com>
	<87wt81f8ky.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
	<450ECC39.3080904@equinephotoart.com>
Message-ID: <87zmcwevbk.fsf@athene.jamux.com>

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From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 23:09:27 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:09:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list
In-Reply-To: <200609182056.k8IKuPsm021761@resources.rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181409270984e630f233@msapiro>

Rob Jackson wrote:

>I need to create an announce only list, where people can subscribe, but they
>cannot post.



See FAQ 3.11
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Sep 18 23:11:43 2006
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:11:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list
In-Reply-To: <200609182056.k8IKuPsm021761@resources.rootsweb.com>
References: <200609182056.k8IKuPsm021761@resources.rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20060918211143.GD30254@fmp.com>

Under Membership Management, "Set everyone's moderation bit, including those 
members not currently visible" should be set On (assuming you already have 
people on the list).  Under Privacy Options | Sender Filters, set 
default_member_moderation to Yes.  On the same page, set 
member_moderation_action to Discard.  Also on the same page be sure to set 
generic_nonmember_action to either Reject or Discard.

Thus spake Rob Jackson on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:56:31PM CDT
> I need to create an announce only list, where people can subscribe, but they
> cannot post.  I also have other lists that I will need to create continually
> that will not be this way.
>  
> Is there a bit I can set for this list only so the subscribers cannot post.
>  
> Thanks
> -Rob
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Fighting against human |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |    creativity is like   |      available at
512-259-1190          |    trying to eradicate  | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |        dandelions"      |
                      |      (Pamela Jones)     |


From robertj at linux4free.com  Mon Sep 18 23:23:47 2006
From: robertj at linux4free.com (Rob Jackson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:23:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609181409270984e630f233@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200609182123.k8ILNfsm029324@resources.rootsweb.com>

Thank you much, and others.  I wasn't aware that you could discard the
moderated posts immediately...but I mainly do the backend stuff.

Thanks

-Rob
  

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 3:09 PM
To: Rob Jackson; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list

Rob Jackson wrote:

>I need to create an announce only list, where people can subscribe, but 
>they cannot post.



See FAQ 3.11
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Sep 18 23:25:42 2006
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:25:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce scores
In-Reply-To: <20060918201115.GA31404@fmp.com>
References: <20060918201115.GA31404@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <20060918212542.GF30254@fmp.com>

Well, I found 
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers at python.org/msg09827.html which 
rather explains this, and identifies it as a mailman bug.

Does anyone know if this has been addressed, or will be addressed in new 
versions of mailman?

Thus spake Lindsay Haisley on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:11:15PM CDT
> I just received a message via one of my list admins from a subscriber who was 
> unsubscribed from a list based on a bounce from last year.  The subscriber got 
> a message with the following:
> 
> > Your membership in the mailing list ..... has been disabled
> > due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
> > 12-Mar-2005.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
> > you re-enable your membership.
> 
> Indeed, if I use dbdump to look at the config.pck for the list I see _many_ 
> entries such as the following:
> 
> 		       '[address_redacted]': <bounce info for member 
> [address_redacted]
> 	current score: 2.0
> 	last bounce date: (2005, 2, 17)
> 	email notices left: 3
> 	last notice date: (1970, 1, 1)
> 	confirmation cookie: None
> 
> 
> I notice two things about these.  First, the last bounce date is _way_ in the 
> past, even though bounce_info_stale_after is set to 12 days.  The second is 
> that the last notice date is bogus.  Mailman _is_ resetting bounce information 
> since I get many notices such as the following in my mailman logs:
> 
> Sep 18 12:05:24 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce info, resetting
> Sep 18 13:15:55 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce info, resetting
> Sep 18 13:32:43 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce info, resetting
> 
> ... so it looks as if bounce counts _are_ getting reset.
> 
> This list has been ongoing for a long time, and the entire list was moved to a 
> new server early this year and has been functioning normally otherwise.  I 
> suspect that these database entries may have gotten crosswise of a mailman 
> version upgrade, of which there have been several since the list was moved to 
> mailman.
> 
> Can anyone tell me how I can straighten this out and get the mechanics of 
> bounce processing working properly?
> 
> -- 
> Lindsay Haisley       | "Fighting against human |     PGP public key
> FMP Computer Services |    creativity is like   |      available at
> 512-259-1190          |    trying to eradicate  | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
> http://www.fmp.com    |        dandelions"      |
>                       |      (Pamela Jones)     |
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Fighting against human |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |    creativity is like   |      available at
512-259-1190          |    trying to eradicate  | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |        dandelions"      |
                      |      (Pamela Jones)     |


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 18 23:30:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:30:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce scores
In-Reply-To: <20060918212542.GF30254@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181430460671e794938d@msapiro>

Lindsay Haisley wrote:

>Well, I found 
>http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers at python.org/msg09827.html which 
>rather explains this, and identifies it as a mailman bug.
>
>Does anyone know if this has been addressed, or will be addressed in new 
>versions of mailman?


It's on my ToDo list, but it hasn't been done.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From waterstraat at geology.ucdavis.edu  Tue Sep 19 00:03:40 2006
From: waterstraat at geology.ucdavis.edu (Paul Waterstraat - UC Davis Geology)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:03:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] posting to any list also gets posted to local
	mailman list (v 2.1.2)
Message-ID: <48530240-2B53-41EF-9AC9-BDB952BF23D0@geology.ucdavis.edu>

Greetings,

For the last week or so it seems that messages posted to any of my  
lists also get posted to local mailman list. (Version 2.1.2)

Any ideas or pointers?


  --Paul.

Trust no one; and be careful out there.
-- 
Paul "maddog" Waterstraat    Internet: waterstraat at geology.ucdavis.edu
Department of Geology        http://www.geology.ucdavis.edu/~waterstraat
University of California     Voice: (530) 752-7421
One Shields Avenue           FAX:   (530) 752-0951
Davis, CA  95616-8605 USA

    If encryption is outlawed, then bayl bhgynjf jvyy hfr rapelcgvba.



From benjamin at py-soft.co.uk  Tue Sep 19 00:22:17 2006
From: benjamin at py-soft.co.uk (Benjamin Donnachie)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:22:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060918112051.06679ed8@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <72a0601a28480510857f7d0b6b11d934@www.py-soft.co.uk>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060918112051.06679ed8@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <450F1C19.6020501@py-soft.co.uk>

Dragon wrote:
> Is there some reason you would not want to run https on all of the lists?

I host a number of sites free of charge.  While I don't mind offering
Mailman FoC, I feel that there are somethings users should pay for and
https is one of them!

Take care,

Ben


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep 19 01:27:59 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:27:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
In-Reply-To: <450F1C19.6020501@py-soft.co.uk>
References: <72a0601a28480510857f7d0b6b11d934@www.py-soft.co.uk>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060918112051.06679ed8@crimson-dragon.com>
	<450F1C19.6020501@py-soft.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060918162712.065b0e90@crimson-dragon.com>

Benjamin Donnachie sent the message below at 15:22 9/18/2006:
>Dragon wrote:
> > Is there some reason you would not want to run https on all of the lists?
>
>I host a number of sites free of charge.  While I don't mind offering
>Mailman FoC, I feel that there are somethings users should pay for and
>https is one of them!
>
>Take care,
>
>Ben
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Fair enough, I can understand that the cost of getting an SSL 
certificate can be a problem. Especially in a case like this.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Sep 19 02:18:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:18:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] posting to any list also gets posted to
	localmailman list (v 2.1.2)
In-Reply-To: <48530240-2B53-41EF-9AC9-BDB952BF23D0@geology.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181718590734875d1719@msapiro>

Paul Waterstraat wrote:
>
>For the last week or so it seems that messages posted to any of my  
>lists also get posted to local mailman list. (Version 2.1.2)


Assuming mailman at example.com is not a member of your other lists, I
think the most likely explaination is that there has been some change
in the incoming MTA which is causing it to deliver incoming messages
for list at example.com to both 'list' and 'mailman'.

Check the MTA's logs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From justin at cityfone.net  Tue Sep 19 02:37:15 2006
From: justin at cityfone.net (Justin Zygmont)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:37:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006091521054702508ab9d589@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006091521054702508ab9d589@msapiro>
Message-ID: <450F3BBB.3090706@cityfone.net>

>>Is one of the other lists a better place to ask this?
> 
> 
> Probably not. Did you see the reply to your original post at
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-September/053291.html>?

I must have missed your message somehow, thanks a lot for the reply.


Justin Zygmont wrote:

 >I have a noticed a problem with emails stored in the list archives if
 >they have been uuencoded.  When HTML emails are distributed to all the
 >list members they just show the raw HTML code,


 >Messages as sent to message subscribers or messages in the archives?
 >You should be able to send HTML to individual subscribers if you don't
 >filter content or if you allow the appropriate MIME types in content
 >filtering. How such messages appear in archives depends on sitewide
 >archiving options set in mm_cfg.py.


 >so I used uuencode and it
 >fixed that, but when I take a look at the message in the archives it
 >looks mostly garbled.  Here's an example:
 >
 >begin 644 AgentCommissions.html
 >M/"%$3T-465!%($A434P at 4%5"3$E#("(M+R]7,T,O+T141"!(5$U,(#0N,#$@
 >M5')A;G-I=&EO;F%L+R]%3B(^#0H\:'1M;#X-"CQH96%D/@T*/'1I=&QE/D-I
 >M='EF;VYE($-O;6UI<W-I;VX at 0F%N:SPO=&ET;&4^#0H\<W1Y;&4^#0H\(2TM
 >M#0IT9"YL:71T;&5T97AT("![(&9O;G0M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US
 >M:7IE.B X<'0@?0T*:#$@(" @(" @(" @(" @>R!F;VYT+69A;6EL>3H at 07)I
 >M86P[(&9O;G0M<VEZ93H@,31P="!]#0IH,B @(" @(" @(" @("![(&9O;G0M
 >M9F%M:6QY.B!!<FEA;#L at 9F]N="US:7IE.B Q,G!T('T-"G1D+F)I9W1E>'0@
 >M(" @('L at 9F]N="UF86UI;'DZ($%R:6%L.R!F;VYT+7-I>F4Z(#$T<'0@?0T*


 >This is not garbled. It is the uuencoded AgentCommissions.html file. A
 >uuencoded file is not human readable, but as far as mail agents are
 >concerned, it is plain text and will be archived in its raw form. Some
 >MUAs see a uuencoded file in an email and call it an 'attachment' and
 >render it as such, but this is non-standard. Also some MUAs when
 >composing will put uuencoded data in a separate MIME part with
 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: uuencode, x-uuencode, uue or x-uue, but
 >this to is non-standard.


 >Anyone know if there is a better way to deal with this?


 >You should be able to send HTML messages to your list members.

 >What Mailman version is this? What are your content filtering settings?
 >Can you provide a sample of a message as sent to Mailman and as
 >received from Mailman?

The messages appear as HTML code, and do not display an HTML looking 
email when it arrives to the subscribers.  This was one of the reasons 
why I tried using uuencode, but in the list archives, they show in their 
uuencoded form which is useless.  I wanted it to appear as HTML in 
thunderbird, and include it as an attachment also.

I'm using mailman-2.1.5.1-34.rhel4.3 and tried different content 
filering options, it didn't seem to help though.  Here is a sample of 
part of an email:


<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>Mobility Points Report</title>
<style>
<!--
td.littletext  { font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt }
h1             { font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt }
h2             { font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt }
td.bigtext     { font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt }
-->
</style>
</head>
<body>



Thanks,






From msapiro at value.net  Tue Sep 19 03:24:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:24:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <450F3BBB.3090706@cityfone.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609181824020484e79492a6@msapiro>

Justin Zygmont wrote:
>
>The messages appear as HTML code, and do not display an HTML looking 
>email when it arrives to the subscribers.


This indicates that the MIME structure of the message has somehow been
corrupted or you are looking at a 'plain' format digest as opposed to
a 'mime' digest or an individual message from the list.


>I'm using mailman-2.1.5.1-34.rhel4.3 and tried different content 
>filering options, it didn't seem to help though.  Here is a sample of 
>part of an email:


The sample doesn't help. What we need to see is the headers of the
message and it's subparts. Ideally, both what you send to the list and
what you get back.

Send a very short, HTML message to the list with a Bcc: to yourself.
Then view the message source of both the Bcc: and the message from the
list. If you want help, you can copy and paste these message sources
into a post to this list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From fquestie at vub.ac.be  Tue Sep 19 11:11:41 2006
From: fquestie at vub.ac.be (Frederik Questier)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:11:41 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Variables interpretation in archive templates
Message-ID: <200609191111.41129.fquestie@vub.ac.be>

Hi,

I want to have the date of the messages displayed in the archive index entry
and the description or the subject_prefix of the list in the archive toc.

I can get adaptions of the templates nicely working,
but I can't get any of these interpreted:

%(datestr_html)s   in mailman/templates/en/archidxentry.html
%(description)s    in mailman/templates/en/archtocnombox.html
%(subject_prefix)s in mailman/templates/en/archtocnombox.html

Will things like these (examples from mailman as distributed) *do* work:
%(datestr_html)s in mailman/templates/en/article.html
%(subject_html)s in mailman/templates/en/article.html
%(description)s  in mailman/templates/en/article.html/admindbpreamble.html


What should I do to get the first examples interpreted by mailman/bin/arch ?
Using other variables, or adapt mailman/bin/arch or...?

Thanks


--
Frederik Questier
http://questier.com


From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Tue Sep 19 13:55:09 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:55:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>
References: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>
Message-ID: <450FDA9D.4030701@ncmail.net>


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Anne Ramey wrote:
>
>   
>>>> I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I
>>>> try to do:
>>>>    //add user to Admin email list
>>>>    $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." 
>>>> admins";
>>>>    system($command, $status);
>>>>
>>>> I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  
>>>>         
> and:
>
>   
>> My safe_mode is Off.  There are no errors in my http log and none output 
>> to the screen.  I can run other commands with system and 
>> shell_exec...just not any mailman commands.
>>     
>
>
> Are you sure you're executing the command as the mailman group?
>
> Try
>
> chmod g+s /usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members
>
> and see if that helps. If it does, the problem is with the group
> executing the command.
>
>
>   
That did not help.  Does anyone have any other ideas?  If it were all 
system commands, that would be one thing, but it appears to be just mailman.

Anne


From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Tue Sep 19 14:10:39 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:10:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>
References: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>
Message-ID: <450FDE3F.9090104@ncmail.net>


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Anne Ramey wrote:
>
>   
>>>> I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I
>>>> try to do:
>>>>    //add user to Admin email list
>>>>    $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." 
>>>> admins";
>>>>    system($command, $status);
>>>>
>>>> I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  
>>>>         
> and:
>
>   
>> My safe_mode is Off.  There are no errors in my http log and none output 
>> to the screen.  I can run other commands with system and 
>> shell_exec...just not any mailman commands.
>>     
>
>
> Are you sure you're executing the command as the mailman group?
>
> Try
>
> chmod g+s /usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members
>
> and see if that helps. If it does, the problem is with the group
> executing the command.
>
> You don't want to leave add_members as SETGID if non Mailman admins
> have shell access to your box as SETGID will allow anyone to
> successfully run the command.
>   
That didn't help.  I have found an error:
IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: 
'/usr/local/mailman/lists/mailman/config.pck'
it was in my main apache log, not the log for the virtual server I am 
running the command off of.  What I get permission denied to depends on 
what command I'm trying to run.  Sometimes it's a lock file.  If it's a 
group thing, I don't understand why--my perl scripts can run these 
commands fine, but my php cannot.  They both run from the same web 
server, so they'll both be running as the same user. 

Anne


From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Tue Sep 19 14:48:11 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:48:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>
References: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>
Message-ID: <450FE70B.6020102@ncmail.net>


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Anne Ramey wrote:
>
>   
>>>> I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I
>>>> try to do:
>>>>    //add user to Admin email list
>>>>    $command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." 
>>>> admins";
>>>>    system($command, $status);
>>>>
>>>> I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users.  
>>>>         
> and:
>
>   
>> My safe_mode is Off.  There are no errors in my http log and none output 
>> to the screen.  I can run other commands with system and 
>> shell_exec...just not any mailman commands.
>>     
>
>
> Are you sure you're executing the command as the mailman group?
>
> Try
>
> chmod g+s /usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members
>
> and see if that helps. If it does, the problem is with the group
> executing the command.
>
> You don't want to leave add_members as SETGID if non Mailman admins
> have shell access to your box as SETGID will allow anyone to
> successfully run the command.
>   
Sorry for the multitude of emails, but I'm hammering on this and keep 
finding out new tidbits.  The scripts only work as mailman and root on 
this machine...it is the live server (this is the test) that can 
successfully run from the perl scripts.  So my issue is different than I 
thought.  My check_perms gives me "No problems found".  I have added a 
couple of users to the mailman group, I've tried the chmod g+s for all 
the scripts.  All to no effect.  I'm beginning to wonder if it may be a 
systems issue--something wrong with the way it's handling group permissions.

Anne


From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Tue Sep 19 15:06:21 2006
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:06:21 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
In-Reply-To: <450FE70B.6020102@ncmail.net>
References: <PC176020060918131905004652b26d93@msapiro>
	<450FE70B.6020102@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <450FEB4D.1030807@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

> couple of users to the mailman group, I've tried the chmod g+s for all 
> the scripts.  All to no effect.  I'm beginning to wonder if it may be a 
> systems issue--something wrong with the way it's handling group permissions.

Scripts can't be run under setuid/setgid on *nix systems.  You may have 
to change the user's primary group as mailman or use newgrp command on 
solaris.

-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/


From stefan at gabox.de  Tue Sep 19 16:40:58 2006
From: stefan at gabox.de (Stefan Grote)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:40:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609181059500968f471fb7a@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609181059500968f471fb7a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4510017A.6050908@gabox.de>

Mark Sapiro schrieb:

>Stefan Grote wrote:
>  
>
>>okay, but my Mailman error log is empty and my apache logs are empty too.
>>    
>>
>
>
>This can happen for a few reasons, but the most likely is a syntax
>error in mm_cfg.py.
>
>  
>
i don't touch the config. its ah fresh install from a Debian packet...
any ideas anyway?


From perl at ipchains.ru  Tue Sep 19 16:45:17 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg Dambaev)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:45:17 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <4510017A.6050908@gabox.de>
References: <PC1760200609181059500968f471fb7a@msapiro>
	<4510017A.6050908@gabox.de>
Message-ID: <4510027D.9020606@ipchains.ru>

Stefan Grote wrote:
> Mark Sapiro schrieb:
>
>   
>> Stefan Grote wrote:
>>  
>>
>>     
>>> okay, but my Mailman error log is empty and my apache logs are empty too.
>>>    
>>>
>>>       
>> This can happen for a few reasons, but the most likely is a syntax
>> error in mm_cfg.py.
>>
>>  
>>
>>     
> i don't touch the config. its ah fresh install from a Debian packet...
> any ideas anyway?
>
>   

Good practice after a new install do $PREFIX/bin/check_perms and 
$PREFIX/bin/check_perms -f and try creating default (initial) list 
`mailman' with `$PREFIX/bin/newlist mailman`

Try this, may help.


From tkrah at fachschaft.imn.htwk-leipzig.de  Tue Sep 19 16:56:12 2006
From: tkrah at fachschaft.imn.htwk-leipzig.de (Torsten Krah)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:56:12 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list management - no subscribtion possible? - Only
	some moderated	should be able to post, possible too?
Message-ID: <1158677772.5832.34.camel@SF100.friends>

Hello, is it possible to get it configured that no one can subscribe to
the list - all subscribtion have to be done by an admin?

I can choose confirm, approval or both - but is there a way to get
"none" ( beside blocking the webinterface for subscrption or removing
the subscribe alias at MTA level ) ?

Is there also a way to have a moderated list, where only some of them
are allowed to post ( and to be moderated ) - one way lists or
announcements should only be made by  a few people but many are on the
list which should not be able to post something ( which have to be
moderated to be discarded or rejected ).

thx for the help

kind regards



From rb at islandnet.com  Tue Sep 19 20:18:54 2006
From: rb at islandnet.com (Ron Brogden)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:18:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] anti-virus triggering on digests
Message-ID: <200609191118.54898.rb@islandnet.com>

Hello.  A list maintainer on a server I look after was reporting lost digests 
when sending to Shaw Cable addresses.  I received the following from the Shaw 
admins today on why this was occurring:

--------------------
Our AntiSpam
software is experiencing difficulties when scanning some of your daily
digests. The problem is that some of these digests are over 20 messages
deep with headers. At this time, the only solution we can see is to
change the format in which your digests are sent (to exclude the headers
from each attached message).

Please be aware that our AntiSpam implementation is one of the most
popular in the world. As such, it is very likely that other ISPs are
experiencing the same or similar difficulties.
--------------------

I am currently tracking down what anti-virus they are using on their end but 
this does bring up the issue of digest format and whether this is something 
unique to Mailman.  

Has anyone else hit this issue?  Is there any immediate solution other than 
trying to the lower digest size threshold so as to send out more often?  

Cheers,

Ron

-- 
islandnet.com
http://www.islandnet.com
support at islandnet.com
ph: (250) 383-0096 fax: (250) 383-6698


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Sep 19 20:40:20 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:40:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] anti-virus triggering on digests
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060919113920.06238dd0@crimson-dragon.com>

Oops, sent my reply to only Ron when I meant to also send to the 
list. My apologies to Ron for him receiving this twice.

Ron Brogden wrote:
>Hello.  A list maintainer on a server I look after was reporting lost digests
>when sending to Shaw Cable addresses.  I received the following from the Shaw
>admins today on why this was occurring:
>
>--------------------
>Our AntiSpam
>software is experiencing difficulties when scanning some of your daily
>digests. The problem is that some of these digests are over 20 messages
>deep with headers. At this time, the only solution we can see is to
>change the format in which your digests are sent (to exclude the headers
>from each attached message).
>
>Please be aware that our AntiSpam implementation is one of the most
>popular in the world. As such, it is very likely that other ISPs are
>experiencing the same or similar difficulties.
>--------------------
>
>I am currently tracking down what anti-virus they are using on their end but
>this does bring up the issue of digest format and whether this is something
>unique to Mailman.
>
>Has anyone else hit this issue?  Is there any immediate solution other than
>trying to the lower digest size threshold so as to send out more often?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

It sounds like they are not handling MIME format digests correctly.

It also sounds like they are trying to pass the buck.

You could try plain text digests but that is only a potential 
workaround and negates the benefits of MIME digests for your subscribers.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From batmobile_99 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 19 21:36:53 2006
From: batmobile_99 at yahoo.com (Dave Troiano)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
Message-ID: <20060919193653.42617.qmail@web56902.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

As list admin for over 90 lists, I have the need to
frequently perform an inquiry to see which lists a
member is subscribed to. 

As suggest here, this option is an ideal solution:

>>>
By extension, an admin of any list can go to the
membership list pages
and click any members address to get the members
options page and then
click the "List my other subscriptions" button to get
the names of all
the lists to which the member belongs.
>>>

But, my problem is that this is not working. I have
version 2.1.8.

When I try to do this, I receive the following error
message:

"Note: The list administrator may not view the other
subscriptions for 
this
user."

It seems like this should work, and I should not be
receiving this 
error
message. Does anyone know of a way to resolve this
issue so that I may 
see
what other lists a specific member is on?

Please help!

Thank you in advance for any help.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From zbyszek at szalbot.homedns.org  Tue Sep 19 23:14:26 2006
From: zbyszek at szalbot.homedns.org (Zbigniew Szalbot)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:14:26 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] invalid checksum while doing portinstall
Message-ID: <20060919231024.L87396@192.168.11.51>

Hello,

I have a problem installing mailman under FreeBSD 6.1. When I go to ports 
to install mailman, it gives me an error message about invalid checksum.

Distinfo file shows the following):

MD5 (mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz) = 26c94b95b0ce3b4403314dbc900f672d
SHA256 (mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz) = 
941f255d99ebbfa7a351dfa52c43684598d78afc
21204fa240c8bb51a3175f46
SIZE (mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz) = 7851444

and installation is halted by the following error:

===>  Extracting for mailman-with-htdig-2.1.9.r1
=> MD5 Checksum OK for mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz.
=> SHA256 Checksum OK for mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz.
=> No MD5 checksum recorded for mailman/indexing-2.1.6-0.1.patch.gz.
=> No SHA256 checksum recorded for mailman/indexing-2.1.6-0.1.patch.gz.
=> No suitable checksum found for mailman/indexing-2.1.6-0.1.patch.gz.
=> No MD5 checksum recorded for mailman/htdig-2.1.6-0.1.patch.gz.
=> No SHA256 checksum recorded for mailman/htdig-2.1.6-0.1.patch.gz.
=> No suitable checksum found for mailman/htdig-2.1.6-0.1.patch.gz.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman.
** Command failed [exit code 1]: /usr/bin/script -qa 
/tmp/portinstall.86052.0 env make WITH_HTDIG=1
** Fix the problem and try again.
** Listing the failed packages (*:skipped / !:failed)
         ! mail/mailman  (unknown build error)
--->  Packages processed: 0 done, 0 ignored, 0 skipped and 1 failed

Could anyone offer any advice on how to install mailman? I tried deleting 
the distinfo file and using cvsup to generate a new one but it has not 
helped either.

Many thanks for your help.

Warm regards,


--
Zbigniew Szalbot


From justin at cityfone.net  Wed Sep 20 00:28:44 2006
From: justin at cityfone.net (Justin Zygmont)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:28:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609181824020484e79492a6@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609181824020484e79492a6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <45106F1C.9030506@cityfone.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Justin Zygmont wrote:
> 
>>The messages appear as HTML code, and do not display an HTML looking 
>>email when it arrives to the subscribers.
> 
> 
> 
> This indicates that the MIME structure of the message has somehow been
> corrupted or you are looking at a 'plain' format digest as opposed to
> a 'mime' digest or an individual message from the list.
> 
> 
> 
>>I'm using mailman-2.1.5.1-34.rhel4.3 and tried different content 
>>filering options, it didn't seem to help though.  Here is a sample of 
>>part of an email:
> 
> 
> 
> The sample doesn't help. What we need to see is the headers of the
> message and it's subparts. Ideally, both what you send to the list and
> what you get back.
> 
> Send a very short, HTML message to the list with a Bcc: to yourself.
> Then view the message source of both the Bcc: and the message from the
> list. If you want help, you can copy and paste these message sources
> into a post to this list.

ok, thanks.  Here is a paste of the message sources.  These both don't 
show up as HTML in thunderbird for some reason, I guess mailman may not 
be the cause?  Messages below were each shortened to save size.


Emailed directly to me:



 From - Tue Sep 19 14:51:50 2006
X-Account-Key: account2
X-UIDL: 1154544464.3663
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Return-Path: <jbill at cityfone.net>
X-Original-To: justin at cityfone.net
Delivered-To: justin at cityfone.net
Received: from citybillingcityfone.net (citybilling.cityfone.local 
[192.168.43.30])
	by citysupport.cityfone.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CA12543C1
	for <justin at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from citybilling.cityfone.local (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by citybillingcityfone.net (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k8JLovlg007676
	for <justin at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from jan at localhost)
	by citybilling.cityfone.local (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id k8JLovKo007675
	for justin at cityfone.net; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: jbill at cityfone.net
Message-Id: <200609192150.k8JLovKo007675 at citybilling.cityfone.local>
X-Authentication-Warning: citybilling.cityfone.local: jan set sender to 
jbill at cityfone.net using -r
To: justin at cityfone.net
Subject: test
X-IMAPbase: 1154544464 3663
Status: O
X-UID: 3663
Content-Length: 3344
X-Keywords: 


<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MoreMobility Points Report</title>
<style>
<!--
td.littletext  { font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt }
h1             { font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt }
h2             { font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt }
td.bigtext     { font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt }
-->
</style>
</head>
<body>
<img src="http://citynet/public/CityNetReportsLogo.gif" /><hr>
<h1>Connection Points</h1>
<hr>
<h2>These are clawbacks for phones returned in 30 days.</h2>
<table border="1" width="100%">
<tr>
<td class="littletext">Line</td>
<td class="littletext">Handset Code</td>
<td class="littletext">Activation Date</td>
<td class="littletext">Dealer</td>
<td class="littletext">Points</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="4" class="littletext">Total</td>
<td class="littletext" align="right">       0</td>
</tr>
</table>
<br><br><hr><table width="100%"><tr><td align="left" 
class="littletext">&copy; 2004-2006 Test report. All Rights 
Reserved.</td><td align="right" class="littletext">Report generated on 
September 14, 2006 00:00.</td></tr></table>
</body>
</html>




Same message, sent to me through mailman:


 From - Tue Sep 19 14:56:50 2006
X-Account-Key: account2
X-UIDL: 1154544464.3664
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Return-Path: <reportgroup-bounces at cityfone.net>
X-Original-To: justin at cityfone.net
Delivered-To: justin at cityfone.net
Received: from citysupport.cityfone.local (localhost.localdomain 
[127.0.0.1])
	by citysupport.cityfone.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id 995942543C1;
	Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:55:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Original-To: reportgroup at cityfone.net
Delivered-To: reportgroup at cityfone.net
Received: from citybillingcityfone.net (citybilling.cityfone.local
	[192.168.43.30])
	by citysupport.cityfone.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id B424F2543C1
	for <reportgroup at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:55:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from citybilling.cityfone.local (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by citybillingcityfone.net (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id
	k8JLtuVL007686
	for <reportgroup at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:55:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from jan at localhost)
	by citybilling.cityfone.local (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id
	k8JLtu47007685
	for reportgroup at cityfone.net; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:55:56 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:55:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: jbill at cityfone.net
Message-Id: <200609192155.k8JLtu47007685 at citybilling.cityfone.local>
X-Authentication-Warning: citybilling.cityfone.local: jan set sender to
	jbill at cityfone.net using -r
To: reportgroup at cityfone.net
Subject: [Reportgroup] test
X-BeenThere: reportgroup at cityfone.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
Sender: reportgroup-bounces at cityfone.net
Errors-To: reportgroup-bounces at cityfone.net
X-IMAPbase: 1154544464 3664
Status: O
X-UID: 3664
Content-Length: 3475
X-Keywords: 


<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MoreMobility Points Report</title>
<style>
<!--
td.littletext  { font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt }
h1             { font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt }
h2             { font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt }
td.bigtext     { font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt }
-->
</style>
</head>
<body>
<img src="http://citynet/public/CityNetReportsLogo.gif" /><hr>
<h1>Connection Points</h1>
<hr>
<h2>These are clawbacks for phones returned in 30 days.</h2>
<table border="1" width="100%">
<tr>
<td class="littletext">Line</td>
<td class="littletext">Handset Code</td>
<td class="littletext">Activation Date</td>
<td class="littletext">Dealer</td>
<td class="littletext">Points</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="4" class="littletext">Total</td>
<td class="littletext" align="right">       0</td>
</tr>
</table>
<br><br><hr><table width="100%"><tr><td align="left" 
class="littletext">&copy; 2004-2006 test report. All Rights 
Reserved.</td><td align="right" class="littletext">Report generated on 
September 14, 2006 00:00.</td></tr></table>
</body>
</html>
_______________________________________________
Reportgroup mailing list
Reportgroup at cityfone.net
http://citysupport/mailman/admin


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Sep 20 01:08:04 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:08:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <45106F1C.9030506@cityfone.net>
References: <PC1760200609181824020484e79492a6@msapiro>
	<45106F1C.9030506@cityfone.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060919154759.03a3e520@crimson-dragon.com>

Justin Zygmont sent the message below at 15:28 9/19/2006:

>ok, thanks.  Here is a paste of the message sources.  These both don't
>show up as HTML in thunderbird for some reason, I guess mailman may not
>be the cause?  Messages below were each shortened to save size.
>
>
>Emailed directly to me:
>
>  From - Tue Sep 19 14:51:50 2006
>X-Account-Key: account2
>X-UIDL: 1154544464.3663
>X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
>X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
>Return-Path: <jbill at cityfone.net>
>X-Original-To: justin at cityfone.net
>Delivered-To: justin at cityfone.net
>Received: from citybillingcityfone.net (citybilling.cityfone.local
>[192.168.43.30])
>         by citysupport.cityfone.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CA12543C1
>         for <justin at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: from citybilling.cityfone.local (localhost [127.0.0.1])
>         by citybillingcityfone.net (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP 
> id k8JLovlg007676
>         for <justin at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: (from jan at localhost)
>         by citybilling.cityfone.local (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id 
> k8JLovKo007675
>         for justin at cityfone.net; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
>From: jbill at cityfone.net
>Message-Id: <200609192150.k8JLovKo007675 at citybilling.cityfone.local>
>X-Authentication-Warning: citybilling.cityfone.local: jan set sender to
>jbill at cityfone.net using -r
>To: justin at cityfone.net
>Subject: test
>X-IMAPbase: 1154544464 3663
>Status: O
>X-UID: 3663
>Content-Length: 3344
>X-Keywords:
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

The most immediate problem I see is that these messages are missing 
any sort of MIME headers (as defined in RFC2045). Without those 
headers, there is no definitive way for the mail client to know what 
the content is. Some MUAs will then default to plain-text and not try 
to even guess what the content type is. Some (like Eudora which I 
use) may detect the HTML structure of the message body and render it.

I am curious how you are creating these messages, are you composing 
them in an MUA in HTML format or are you cutting and pasting an HTML 
document from another editor into the message body? If the latter, 
you are not going to get the correct headers to identify the message 
content to a MIME compliant MUA. If the former, your MUA should be 
inserting these headers correctly.


As stated in section 1 of RFC2046:


    The first document in this set, 
<http://www.faqs.org/rfcs//rfcs/rfc2045.html>RFC 2045, defines a 
number of header
    fields, including Content-Type. The Content-Type field is used to
    specify the nature of the data in the body of a MIME entity, by
    giving media type and subtype identifiers, and by providing auxiliary
    information that may be required for certain media types.  After the
    type and subtype names, the remainder of the header field is simply a
    set of parameters, specified in an attribute/value notation.  The
    ordering of parameters is not significant.

    In general, the top-level media type is used to declare the general
    type of data, while the subtype specifies a specific format for that
    type of data.  Thus, a media type of "image/xyz" is enough to tell a
    user agent that the data is an image, even if the user agent has no
    knowledge of the specific image format "xyz".  Such information can
    be used, for example, to decide whether or not to show a user the raw
    data from an unrecognized subtype -- such an action might be
    reasonable for unrecognized subtypes of "text", but not for
    unrecognized subtypes of "image" or "audio".  For this reason,
    registered subtypes of "text", "image", "audio", and "video" should
    not contain embedded information that is really of a different type.
    Such compound formats should be represented using the "multipart" or
    "application" types.





Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From unix.iingen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 02:25:17 2006
From: unix.iingen at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Instituto_de_Ingenieria_=C1rea_de_Sistemas_Unix/Linux?=)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:25:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with apache2 and internet explorere
Message-ID: <67a4dc590609191725o27fe663aj612f378c77749c5d@mail.gmail.com>

hello, until recently i managed a succesful mailman 2.1.7 mailing  list in a
Suse 9.2 machine with Apache2, but last week i installed a patch for
apache2, and since then ive been having the following problem when someone
tries to enter to the admin page with internet explorer 6 (NOTE: Im using
ssl validation with apache):

[error] SSL Re-negotiation in conjunction with POST method not
supported!\nhint: try SSLOptions +OptRenegotiate

i tried adding the SSLOptions in my vhost file but it still doesn't work

Also there aren't  problems when someone access the page with firefox

-- 
Instituto de Ingenier?a de la UNAM
Coordinaci?n de Sistemas de C?mputo
?rea de Sistemas Unix/Linux


From tmz at pobox.com  Wed Sep 20 02:51:59 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:51:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] invalid checksum while doing portinstall
In-Reply-To: <20060919231024.L87396@192.168.11.51>
References: <20060919231024.L87396@192.168.11.51>
Message-ID: <20060920005159.GF12508@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Zbigniew Szalbot wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have a problem installing mailman under FreeBSD 6.1. When I go to ports 
> to install mailman, it gives me an error message about invalid checksum.
> 
> Distinfo file shows the following):
> 
> MD5 (mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz) = 26c94b95b0ce3b4403314dbc900f672d
> SHA256 (mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz) = 
> 941f255d99ebbfa7a351dfa52c43684598d78afc
> 21204fa240c8bb51a3175f46
> SIZE (mailman/mailman-2.1.9rc1.tgz) = 7851444

This is a problem with your FreeBSD ports system, not with Mailman.
You're more likely to get a quick answer from one of the FreeBSD
lists[1].

[1] http://www.freebsd.org/community/mailinglists.html

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

iQFDBAEBAgAtBQJFEJCvJhhodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvYm94LmNvbS9+dG16L3BncC90
bXouYXNjAAoJEEMlk4u+rwzjDo4H/iJO+0iM/Wa7TV5jnT2pIuSBCpNaxOqCMNkt
nMeomhk/A5WjDUh2334EnCqpBDFyjn10lqMp8bB6u6NeasqqVQCdZLeaI6FIMxrY
mnvJxoltr6GYR2XKDu7lM62faG8bNHljMZYQo2wlO/ayh6JaG2tiXCIVoENGnlhU
ZRfB4d+6H49p6RQnalfnffhpIM8Cp8EVrvqHkm4eXTP4j0nte94WOG0UIGcbYXhR
bRoc9RVJ80D5dUMAcLwENauGU1O+S9C1FwflaFrQf0lxWCyJTEWnJpZseNADSHDV
0r+t00wKV6JRrKnveQEIhScubIlu/Py7e6wXq7UZgA8kjqPEqw8=
=h6bC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From cpz at tuunq.com  Wed Sep 20 03:51:06 2006
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:51:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] invalid checksum while doing portinstall
In-Reply-To: <20060919231024.L87396@192.168.11.51> from Zbigniew Szalbot at
	"Sep 19, 2006 11:14:26 pm"
Message-ID: <20060920015107.5940A7AE@mail.tuunq.com>

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Zbigniew Szalbot wrote:

> I have a problem installing mailman under FreeBSD 6.1. When I go to ports 
> to install mailman, it gives me an error message about invalid checksum.

> Could anyone offer any advice on how to install mailman? I tried deleting 
> the distinfo file and using cvsup to generate a new one but it has not 
> helped either.

The bsd ports tree is never (and can't be) screamingly up to the minute. 
Since for mailman IIRC there aren't any bsd-specific patches needed, I'd 
pull the release tarball and build in /usr/local/src.

z!


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 04:09:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:09:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Variables interpretation in archive templates
In-Reply-To: <200609191111.41129.fquestie@vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609191909590343a2fbbcd2@msapiro>

Frederik Questier wrote:
>
>I can get adaptions of the templates nicely working,
>but I can't get any of these interpreted:
>
>%(datestr_html)s   in mailman/templates/en/archidxentry.html
>%(description)s    in mailman/templates/en/archtocnombox.html
>%(subject_prefix)s in mailman/templates/en/archtocnombox.html
>
>Will things like these (examples from mailman as distributed) *do* work:
>%(datestr_html)s in mailman/templates/en/article.html
>%(subject_html)s in mailman/templates/en/article.html
>%(description)s  in mailman/templates/en/article.html/admindbpreamble.html
>
>
>What should I do to get the first examples interpreted by mailman/bin/arch ?
>Using other variables, or adapt mailman/bin/arch or...?


You need to look at the calls to quick_maketext() in
mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py. These are what get the
appropriate template file and provide the substitution dictionary (the
'd' argument) which is specific to each template.

If you want to add substitution variables to one of the archive
templates, you have to add their definitions to the dictionary passed
to quick_maketext() in HyperArch.py for that template.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 04:20:44 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:20:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <4510017A.6050908@gabox.de>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609191920440812c0aaa018@msapiro>

Stefan Grote wrote:

>i don't touch the config. its ah fresh install from a Debian packet...
>any ideas anyway?

Try changing

STEALTH_MODE = 1

to

STEALTH_MODE = 0

in scripts/driver and see if that gets you a more informative message.
Also check the web server error log.

If you're still stuck, try the following command as the mailman user

python scripts/driver listinfo


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 04:34:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:34:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list management - no subscribtion possible? -
	Onlysome moderated	should be able to post, possible too?
In-Reply-To: <1158677772.5832.34.camel@SF100.friends>
Message-ID: <PC17602006091919343608437dde880f@msapiro>

Torsten Krah wrote:

>Hello, is it possible to get it configured that no one can subscribe to
>the list - all subscribtion have to be done by an admin?
>
>I can choose confirm, approval or both - but is there a way to get
>"none" ( beside blocking the webinterface for subscrption or removing
>the subscribe alias at MTA level ) ?


Without doing the above or modifying code, the closest you can come is
to require approval and let the admin approve or reject the requests.


>Is there also a way to have a moderated list, where only some of them
>are allowed to post ( and to be moderated ) - one way lists or
>announcements should only be made by  a few people but many are on the
>list which should not be able to post something ( which have to be
>moderated to be discarded or rejected ).


So you want the authorized posters posts to be held for moderation and
other members posts to be automatically discarded or rejected, correct?

The only way to do this that I can think of is to have the authorized
posters post from an alias which is not a list member and moderate all
the members. Then set member_moderation_action to reject or discard
and set generic_nonmember_action to hold. This may not be a solution
if you don't want to deal with nonmember posts which aren't from
authorized posters.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 04:50:07 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:50:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
In-Reply-To: <20060919193653.42617.qmail@web56902.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC176020060919195007081212e02393@msapiro>

Dave Troiano wrote:
>
>When I try to do this, I receive the following error
>message:
>
>"Note: The list administrator may not view the other
>subscriptions for 
>this
>user."
>
>It seems like this should work, and I should not be
>receiving this 
>error
>message.


Why should the admin of one list be allowed to view/change information
for a user's other subscriptions to lists of which she/he may not be
the admin?


>Does anyone know of a way to resolve this
>issue so that I may 
>see
>what other lists a specific member is on?


If you are the site admin, log on with the site password and you will
be able to do this. If you are not the site admin, but you have access
to the command line scripts, use bin/find_member.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 05:00:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:00:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list management - no subscribtion possible?
	-Onlysome moderated	should be able to post, possible too?
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006091919343608437dde880f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609192000200890a2fbbece@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>The only way to do this that I can think of is to have the authorized
>posters post from an alias which is not a list member and moderate all
>the members. Then set member_moderation_action to reject or discard
>and set generic_nonmember_action to hold. This may not be a solution
>if you don't want to deal with nonmember posts which aren't from
>authorized posters.


Actually, you can do a bit better than that. Set
generic_nonmember_action to reject or discard and add the authorized
aliases to hold_these_nonmembers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 05:05:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:05:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with apache2 and internet explorere
In-Reply-To: <67a4dc590609191725o27fe663aj612f378c77749c5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609192005110640a2fbbdcb@msapiro>

Instituto de Ingenieria ?rea de Sistemas Unix/Linux wrote:

>hello, until recently i managed a succesful mailman 2.1.7 mailing  list in a
>Suse 9.2 machine with Apache2, but last week i installed a patch for
>apache2, and since then ive been having the following problem when someone
>tries to enter to the admin page with internet explorer 6 (NOTE: Im using
>ssl validation with apache):


Offhand, this looks to me like an Apache 2/MSIE issue, not a Mailman
issue. Have you tried Apache support lists? Have you tried just
removing the Apache patch?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 20 08:58:29 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:58:29 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] extracting banned/rejected/discarded email
	addresses for exim blacklist
Message-ID: <4510E695.3070500@hivemind.net>

Is there an easy way to extract all the addresses which have been marked as
follows in a mailman list setup - but for all lists?

 i.e. extract all addresses which are listed in:
      - banned from subscribing to the list
      - automatically reject posts from $these_addresses
      - automatically discard posts from $these_addresses

It's taken me 30 minutes to manually copy-paste from 10 lists from a single
install (with lots of duplicates involved) and I just don't have the
time/patience to do it for up to 200 lists.

What I'm trying to do is extract all those problem addresses, add to a file
and do a `sort | uniq` on it and add it to exim's blacklist (which is
another exercise in frustration due to format being $domain $sender and not
$sender@$domain)

Suggestions appreciated :-)

(Ideally I want to setup a script to do this automatically on a regular
basis and just add new addresses to exim's blacklist)

Part of the reason I'm looking into this is that despite all my pleading
some list-owners just won't admin their lists properly (and yes I know I can
set a limit on max days to hold - but some legitimate mail might get lost then)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Solitary trees, if they grow at all, grow strong." - Sir Winston Churchill


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 20 09:27:08 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:27:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <87zmcwevbk.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450EB369.7070306@equinephotoart.com>	<87wt81f8ky.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
	<450ECC39.3080904@equinephotoart.com> <87zmcwevbk.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
Message-ID: <p06240505c1369d2d6a72@[10.0.1.4]>

At 5:09 PM -0400 9/18/06, John A. Martin quoted JC Dill:

>     JC> The list subscription policy is that it is not OK to setup a
>     JC> public archive without specific permission.  When a
>     JC> subscription request is accepted the list server is saying
>     JC> "yes" to personal archives, and "no" to public archives
>     JC> without specific permission.  Gmane ignores this distinction.
>
>  Where are those restrictions expressed.  I do not see them at
>  <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>.  I do not see
>  them in either the subscription challenge mail nor in the welcome mail
>  pertaining to a recent subscription to mailman-users.

That's a very valid point.  I thought we'd already covered this 
problem last time the Gmane issue came up, but obviously not.

I'll talk to JC offline and see if we can work up some suggested 
improvements to the wording of the respective templates and then we 
can see what Barry thinks.  Once we have a consensus, one of us will 
make the appropriate changes.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From tkrah at fachschaft.imn.htwk-leipzig.de  Wed Sep 20 11:01:40 2006
From: tkrah at fachschaft.imn.htwk-leipzig.de (Torsten Krah)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:01:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list management - no subscribtion
	possible?	-Onlysome moderated	should be able to post, possible too?
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609192000200890a2fbbece@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609192000200890a2fbbece@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1158742900.20259.0.camel@SF100.friends>

Thx - that are the ways i found, thought maybe i missed some cool
option.

kind regards

Am Dienstag, den 19.09.2006, 20:00 -0700 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> >The only way to do this that I can think of is to have the authorized
> >posters post from an alias which is not a list member and moderate all
> >the members. Then set member_moderation_action to reject or discard
> >and set generic_nonmember_action to hold. This may not be a solution
> >if you don't want to deal with nonmember posts which aren't from
> >authorized posters.
> 
> 
> Actually, you can do a bit better than that. Set
> generic_nonmember_action to reject or discard and add the authorized
> aliases to hold_these_nonmembers.
> 



From batmobile_99 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 20 14:58:46 2006
From: batmobile_99 at yahoo.com (Dave Troiano)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 05:58:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060919195007081212e02393@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060920125846.79297.qmail@web56913.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Mark,

--- Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:

> Dave Troiano wrote:
> >
> >When I try to do this, I receive the following
> error
> >message:
> >
> >"Note: The list administrator may not view the
> other
> >subscriptions for 
> >this
> >user."
> >
> >It seems like this should work, and I should not be
> >receiving this 
> >error
> >message.
> 
> 
> Why should the admin of one list be allowed to
> view/change information
> for a user's other subscriptions to lists of which
> she/he may not be
> the admin?
> 

The scenario we have is that I am the list owner for
all the lists. And we have a controlled
subscription/unsubscription process whereas members
will need to fill out an online request form to
subscribe/unsubscribe, that I process manually.

so the common scenario is when someone requests to be
unsubscribed from all of the lists they are on, or
they leave the company and we need to remove them, we
need a way to quickly identify all the lists they are
on.

> 
> >Does anyone know of a way to resolve this
> >issue so that I may 
> >see
> >what other lists a specific member is on?
> 
> 
> If you are the site admin, log on with the site
> password and you will
> be able to do this. If you are not the site admin,
> but you have access
> to the command line scripts, use bin/find_member.

I'm not the site admin and don't have access to the
command line scripts, unfortunately. But how do I log
on as the site admin to a list in order to view this?
I could get the site adming ID and password if needed.

Thanks,
Dave




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From billl at inetmsg.com  Wed Sep 20 15:46:32 2006
From: billl at inetmsg.com (Bill Landry)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 06:46:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Output to file all lists and associated member
	addresses
Message-ID: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>

Is there a simple way to output to a file all lists with each lists 
associated member addresses?  I know I can use:

    bin/list_lists -b

and then:

    bin/list_members list-name

for each list, but is there a way to do this in one fell swoop, without 
having to run through each member list individually?

Thanks for any and all suggestions...!

Bill 



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 16:16:39 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:16:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Output to file all lists and associated member
	addresses
In-Reply-To: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
References: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609200716n65a40c3bseb2cee223a3208bc@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/20/06, Bill Landry <billl at inetmsg.com> wrote:
> Is there a simple way to output to a file all lists with each lists
> associated member addresses?  I know I can use:
>
snip
>
> for each list, but is there a way to do this in one fell swoop, without
> having to run through each member list individually?
You can do it with some simple shell scripting:

for i in `bin/list_lists -b`; do bin/list_members $i; done

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From bhavin.design at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 16:27:37 2006
From: bhavin.design at gmail.com (Bhavin Shah)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 19:57:37 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list not receiving the messages
Message-ID: <8ed550fd0609200727j2d7128d6l7aed2f7b6a557f84@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I am using the MAILMAN mailing list ( Version 2.1.7) for the website since
couple of years. However, since last few days the Mailing list is not
receiving the messages. Users are getting the following error message when
it is tried to send the message to the Mailing list :

************************************************************************
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

    iaseforum at iaseguj.org

Technical details of permanent failure:
PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550-"The recipient cannot be verified.
 Please check all recipients of this
550 message to verify they are valid."
***************************************************************************

Please help me.

Regards,

Bhavin


From billl at inetmsg.com  Wed Sep 20 16:35:02 2006
From: billl at inetmsg.com (Bill Landry)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 07:35:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Output to file all lists and associated member
	addresses
References: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
	<6fbe3da00609200716n65a40c3bseb2cee223a3208bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01e301c6dcc1$f54de700$f1b3e2a5@blxp>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Patrick Bogen" <pdbogen at gmail.com>

> On 9/20/06, Bill Landry <billl at inetmsg.com> wrote:
>> Is there a simple way to output to a file all lists with each lists
>> associated member addresses?  I know I can use:
>>
> snip
>>
>> for each list, but is there a way to do this in one fell swoop, without
>> having to run through each member list individually?
> You can do it with some simple shell scripting:
>
> for i in `bin/list_lists -b`; do bin/list_members $i; done

Thanks Patrick, that certainly gives me a listing of all of the member 
e-mail address for every list, but does not associate them with the 
particular list they apply to.  I was looking for an output like:

List-A
e-mail-1
e-mail-2
e-mail-3

List-B
e-mail-4
e-mail-5
e-mail-6

List-C
e-mail-7
e-mail-8
e-mail-9

Bill 



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 16:39:16 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:39:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] extracting banned/rejected/discarded email
	addresses for exim blacklist
In-Reply-To: <4510E695.3070500@hivemind.net>
References: <4510E695.3070500@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609200739u58a5710eg12ebbc80df742e7f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/20/06, Bretton Vine <bretton at hivemind.net> wrote:
> Is there an easy way to extract all the addresses which have been marked as
> follows in a mailman list setup - but for all lists?
>
>  i.e. extract all addresses which are listed in:
>       - banned from subscribing to the list
>       - automatically reject posts from $these_addresses
>       - automatically discard posts from $these_addresses
>
bin/dumpdb <list path>/config.pck will give you access to all the
pickled data inside a config, which includes ban_list,
discard_these_nonmembers, and reject_these_nonmembers.

Here's a bash hack using grep, tr, and cut to do it:

#!/bin/bash
DUMPDB=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb
LISTPATH=/var/lib/mailman/lists/
PCK=`$DUMPDB $LISTPATH/$1/config.pck | tr "\n" " " | tr -s " "`

{ for i in ban_list discard_these_nonmembers reject_these_nonmembers
do
    echo $PCK | grep -Eo "'$i': \[[^]]*\]" | cut -d ':' -f 2 | tr -d
"[][' ]" # | tr "," "\n"
done; } | tr "," "\n" | tr -s "\n" | sort | uniq

Put that in a file, e.g. 'script', and run: ./script <listname>.
You'll probably need to fix DUMPDB= and LISTPATH=.

You can wrap this in something like: for i in `list_lists -b` to
automate over all lists.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 16:40:16 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:40:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Output to file all lists and associated member
	addresses
In-Reply-To: <01e301c6dcc1$f54de700$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
References: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
	<6fbe3da00609200716n65a40c3bseb2cee223a3208bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<01e301c6dcc1$f54de700$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609200740r2bf10f7bsbb30bd16e7d6b6dd@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/20/06, Bill Landry <billl at inetmsg.com> wrote:
> Thanks Patrick, that certainly gives me a listing of all of the member
> e-mail address for every list, but does not associate them with the
> particular list they apply to.  I was looking for an output like:
>
> List-A
> e-mail-1
> e-mail-2
> e-mail-3

for i in `bin/list_lists -b`; do echo $i; bin/list_members $i; done

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From barry at python.org  Wed Sep 20 16:42:05 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:42:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Output to file all lists and associated member
	addresses
In-Reply-To: <01e301c6dcc1$f54de700$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
References: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
	<6fbe3da00609200716n65a40c3bseb2cee223a3208bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<01e301c6dcc1$f54de700$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
Message-ID: <6DDCC73E-BEB7-445C-977F-81C5FBAAF672@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sep 20, 2006, at 10:35 AM, Bill Landry wrote:

> Thanks Patrick, that certainly gives me a listing of all of the member
> e-mail address for every list, but does not associate them with the
> particular list they apply to.  I was looking for an output like:

I should mention that one of the things I'm really keen on doing for  
MM 2.2 is to provide XML export (and possibly import) of all list  
data.  It will likely only be available to shell accounts at first,  
at least until Mailman has proper roles and permissions.

As always, you can get a sense for where things are headed (and add  
your own thoughts!) on the Mailman wiki at

http://wiki.list.org

Cheers,
- -Barry

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From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 16:42:35 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:42:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list not receiving the messages
In-Reply-To: <8ed550fd0609200727j2d7128d6l7aed2f7b6a557f84@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8ed550fd0609200727j2d7128d6l7aed2f7b6a557f84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609200742g3fd18335jffdb4d0485df4ddd@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/20/06, Bhavin Shah <bhavin.design at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am using the MAILMAN mailing list ( Version 2.1.7) for the website since
> couple of years. However, since last few days the Mailing list is not
> receiving the messages. Users are getting the following error message when
> it is tried to send the message to the Mailing list :
>

This is an issue with your MTA. The MTA no longer seems to recognize
the names of your mailman lists. This is arguably outside the scope of
this list.

That said, to help you, we'll need to at least know which MTA you're using.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 16:48:00 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:48:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different URL PATTERNS per virtual host?
In-Reply-To: <450F1C19.6020501@py-soft.co.uk>
References: <72a0601a28480510857f7d0b6b11d934@www.py-soft.co.uk>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060918112051.06679ed8@crimson-dragon.com>
	<450F1C19.6020501@py-soft.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609200748i77729f7dqe5ea2e6c94ae0a1a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/18/06, Benjamin Donnachie <benjamin at py-soft.co.uk> wrote:
> Dragon wrote:
> > Is there some reason you would not want to run https on all of the lists?
>
> I host a number of sites free of charge.  While I don't mind offering
> Mailman FoC, I feel that there are somethings users should pay for and
> https is one of them!

You might look into offering cacert.org certificates to your users;
they have no additional cost other than time and (possibly) the small
cost of getting yourself listed as an assurer.

The downside is that their root certificate isn't included in most
browsers; it is still quite a step forward compares to self-signed
certificates.

Unless, of course, "should pay for ... https" means "I want money from
them," which is probably understandable.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 16:58:24 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 07:58:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
In-Reply-To: <20060920125846.79297.qmail@web56913.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC176020060920075824067136f43117@msapiro>

Dave Troiano wrote:
>
>The scenario we have is that I am the list owner for
>all the lists. And we have a controlled
>subscription/unsubscription process whereas members
>will need to fill out an online request form to
>subscribe/unsubscribe, that I process manually.


So you are in fact the site *Mailman* administrator. Sorry, I wasn't
clear that that's what I meant when I said "site admin".

So the next stumbling block is whether this is your organization's
Mailman installation vs. a virtual domain on a hosted installation. If
the former, you should know the Mailman site password. Get whowever
does have access to the command line scripts for Mailman to do
bin/mmsitepas to set a site password for Mailman if there isn't
already one and tell you what it is. Then, if you use this site
password to access a list's admin interface rather than the list admin
password, you will be able to see a users other subscriptions. Or,
perhaps your IT staff can set up a way for you to run bin/find_member.

If your Mailman is just one domain on a hosted Mailman installation,
you will need to negotiate this with the host.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From billl at inetmsg.com  Wed Sep 20 17:12:12 2006
From: billl at inetmsg.com (Bill Landry)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:12:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Output to file all lists and associated member
	addresses
References: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
	<6fbe3da00609200716n65a40c3bseb2cee223a3208bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<01e301c6dcc1$f54de700$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
	<6fbe3da00609200740r2bf10f7bsbb30bd16e7d6b6dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <026301c6dcc7$27183ba0$f1b3e2a5@blxp>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Patrick Bogen" <pdbogen at gmail.com>

> On 9/20/06, Bill Landry <billl at inetmsg.com> wrote:
>> Thanks Patrick, that certainly gives me a listing of all of the member
>> e-mail address for every list, but does not associate them with the
>> particular list they apply to.  I was looking for an output like:
>>
>> List-A
>> e-mail-1
>> e-mail-2
>> e-mail-3
>
> for i in `bin/list_lists -b`; do echo $i; bin/list_members $i; done

Thanks Patrick!  This worked perfectly:

for i in `bin/list_lists -b`; do echo $i >> master-list.txt; 
bin/list_members $i >> master-list.txt; echo >> master-list.txt; done

Bill 



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 17:14:29 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:14:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Output to file all lists and associated member
	addresses
In-Reply-To: <026301c6dcc7$27183ba0$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
References: <018001c6dcbb$2ee3e480$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
	<6fbe3da00609200716n65a40c3bseb2cee223a3208bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<01e301c6dcc1$f54de700$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
	<6fbe3da00609200740r2bf10f7bsbb30bd16e7d6b6dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<026301c6dcc7$27183ba0$f1b3e2a5@blxp>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609200814w3c2df13fx4a84067c3f17de06@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/20/06, Bill Landry <billl at inetmsg.com> wrote:
> Thanks Patrick!  This worked perfectly:
>
> for i in `bin/list_lists -b`; do echo $i >> master-list.txt;
> bin/list_members $i >> master-list.txt; echo >> master-list.txt; done

You could also do:

{ for i in `bin/list_lists -b`;do echo $i; bin/list_members $i; echo;
done; } >> master-list.txt

which is a bit more concise.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 20 18:02:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:02:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060920104604.03641848@visi.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609200902030875392831ce@msapiro>

David Andrews wrote:

>At 09:50 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:
>>Dave Troiano wrote:
>> >
>> >When I try to do this, I receive the following error
>> >message:
>> >
>> >"Note: The list administrator may not view the other
>> >subscriptions for
>> >this
>> >user."
>> >
>>
>>
>>Why should the admin of one list be allowed to view/change information
>>for a user's other subscriptions to lists of which she/he may not be
>>the admin?
>>
>>
>> >Does anyone know of a way to resolve this
>> >issue so that I may
>> >see
>> >what other lists a specific member is on?
>>
>>
>>If you are the site admin, log on with the site password and you will
>>be able to do this. If you are not the site admin, but you have access
>>to the command line scripts, use bin/find_member.
>
>
>I have one idea as to the cause, as I am having the same problem.  Up 
>through versions 2.1.6 I was able to see the other subscriptions of a 
>user, but get the same error message as does Dave.


This is because current behavior was first implemented in 2.1.7.


>I have done something, which is probably bad practice, etc..... but 
>it is done.  I have used the same password for the system admin and 
>site admins, as I too own all the lists -- I have about 100.  So, up 
>through 2.1.6 it must have taken me as system admin, 2.1.8 now 
>possibly sees me as site admin.


Actually, it always takes you as the list admin, not the site admin.
The site admin is allowed to see the user's other subscriptions, the
list admin is not since 2.1.7.


>Is there any way around this?? I can access the command line scripts, 
>but for reasons I won't get into here, it is not my favorite method.


Change the site admin password to be different from the list admin
password and use the stie admin password when you need that function.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Wed Sep 20 18:18:21 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:18:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] extracting banned/rejected/discarded email
	addresses for exim blacklist
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Bretton Vine <bretton@hivemind.net>'
	dated: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:58:29 +0200
Message-ID: <200609201618.k8KGILeb022518@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

Bretton Vine <bretton at hivemind.net> wrote:

>What I'm trying to do is extract all those problem addresses, add to a file
>and do a `sort | uniq` on it and add it to exim's blacklist (which is
>another exercise in frustration due to format being $domain $sender and not
>$sender@$domain)

Use this awk script:

    awk '{print $2 "@" $1}'

to convert $domain $sender  ==>  $sender@$domain

or to do the reverse:

     awk '{print $2 " " $1}' FS=@

to convert $sender@$domain  ==>  $domain $sender
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 20 18:24:34 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:24:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
In-Reply-To: <20060920125846.79297.qmail@web56913.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <20060920125846.79297.qmail@web56913.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c1371b52fb18@[10.0.1.4]>

At 5:58 AM -0700 9/20/06, Dave Troiano wrote:

>  so the common scenario is when someone requests to be
>  unsubscribed from all of the lists they are on, or
>  they leave the company and we need to remove them, we
>  need a way to quickly identify all the lists they are
>  on.

Currently, only the site admin would have access to this level of 
information, and then only by logging into the machine where the 
lists are hosted and running command-line programs.

>  I'm not the site admin and don't have access to the
>  command line scripts, unfortunately.

Unfortunately, that is currently a requirement.

>                                        But how do I log
>  on as the site admin to a list in order to view this?

 From the web, you don't.  It's only available via the command-line.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From batmobile_99 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 20 19:47:39 2006
From: batmobile_99 at yahoo.com (Dave Troiano)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060920075824067136f43117@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060920174739.58946.qmail@web56908.mail.re3.yahoo.com>



--- Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:

> Dave Troiano wrote:
> >
> >The scenario we have is that I am the list owner
> for
> >all the lists. And we have a controlled
> >subscription/unsubscription process whereas members
> >will need to fill out an online request form to
> >subscribe/unsubscribe, that I process manually.
> 
> 
> So you are in fact the site *Mailman* administrator.
> Sorry, I wasn't
> clear that that's what I meant when I said "site
> admin".
> 
> So the next stumbling block is whether this is your
> organization's
> Mailman installation vs. a virtual domain on a
> hosted installation. 

This is our organization's Mailman install on a local
server.

If
> the former, you should know the Mailman site
> password. Get whowever
> does have access to the command line scripts for
> Mailman to do
> bin/mmsitepas to set a site password for Mailman if
> there isn't
> already one and tell you what it is. Then, if you
> use this site
> password to access a list's admin interface rather
> than the list admin
> password, you will be able to see a users other
> subscriptions. 

If the site's password is the same one you need to use
when creating a new list, then I know that password. 

Would this be the password that you enter in the last
field on the create a new password page called "List
creator's (authentication) password."?

Or,
> perhaps your IT staff can set up a way for you to
> run bin/find_member.

This "might" be an option, but I don't know if they
want to release that kind of access to me. I'm hoping
to get to this info via the method mentioned above.

The only interface I have to work with now is the web
interface.

Thanks guys,
Dave

Dave Troiano
#99 JP E30 M3
http://www.vacmotorsports.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From justin_williams at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 22:28:32 2006
From: justin_williams at hotmail.com (Justin Williams)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 13:28:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One email that won't go through on my Mailman
	Listserv...
Message-ID: <BAY117-DAV272A4AB18E0B6EBCB0F7B87230@phx.gbl>

I have been using mailman as an announcement only email list (one way traffic from only a few email addresses).  

While the list works well on almost all occasions, I've encountered one email that I forward to the list that will not ever show up, no matter what I've tried to do.  

The email itself was an HTML formatted (mostly text, but one embedded image) originally forwarded from my Outlook Express email software.

After forwarding the email initially, it never showed up (not emailed back to my account, via mailman... not appearing as an archived message like all other successful emails, etc).

I've since tried resending and/or retying and resending the contents of the email an about a dozen (literally) different ways.

* Kept the HTML, but removed the image
* Forwarded the image only, deleted the text
* Reworded the subject-line
* Reworded the text in the email
* Stripped all formatting (by copy/pasting the text from the email into notepad) and resending
* Stripped all formatting (by copy/pasting the text from the email into notepad) and resending as text-only
* Stripped all formatting (by copy/pasting the text from the email into notepad) and resending using webmail tool rather than OE
* Contacted my domain host to help troubleshoot using almost all the above as well

No matter what I've done, this email (and only this email) is failing as it's being sent to the mailman list.  I've sent about 8 other emails (with varying complexity, formatting, HTML, images, etc) to the list and each goes through, but this one email is somehow stuck being rejected... even if I reword much of the email.

Does anyone have any ideas about what to do with this?\

Please help, THANKS!

From justin at cityfone.net  Thu Sep 21 02:21:12 2006
From: justin at cityfone.net (Justin Zygmont)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 17:21:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060919154759.03a3e520@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <PC1760200609181824020484e79492a6@msapiro>
	<45106F1C.9030506@cityfone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060919154759.03a3e520@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <4511DAF8.4050202@cityfone.net>

Dragon wrote:
> Justin Zygmont sent the message below at 15:28 9/19/2006:
> 
>> ok, thanks.  Here is a paste of the message sources.  These both don't
>> show up as HTML in thunderbird for some reason, I guess mailman may not
>> be the cause?  Messages below were each shortened to save size.
>>
>>
>> Emailed directly to me:
>>
>>  From - Tue Sep 19 14:51:50 2006
>> X-Account-Key: account2
>> X-UIDL: 1154544464.3663
>> X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
>> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
>> Return-Path: <jbill at cityfone.net>
>> X-Original-To: justin at cityfone.net
>> Delivered-To: justin at cityfone.net
>> Received: from citybillingcityfone.net (citybilling.cityfone.local
>> [192.168.43.30])
>>         by citysupport.cityfone.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CA12543C1
>>         for <justin at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
>> Received: from citybilling.cityfone.local (localhost [127.0.0.1])
>>         by citybillingcityfone.net (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 
>> k8JLovlg007676
>>         for <justin at cityfone.net>; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
>> Received: (from jan at localhost)
>>         by citybilling.cityfone.local (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id 
>> k8JLovKo007675
>>         for justin at cityfone.net; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: jbill at cityfone.net
>> Message-Id: <200609192150.k8JLovKo007675 at citybilling.cityfone.local>
>> X-Authentication-Warning: citybilling.cityfone.local: jan set sender to
>> jbill at cityfone.net using -r
>> To: justin at cityfone.net
>> Subject: test
>> X-IMAPbase: 1154544464 3663
>> Status: O
>> X-UID: 3663
>> Content-Length: 3344
>> X-Keywords:
> 
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
> 
> The most immediate problem I see is that these messages are missing any 
> sort of MIME headers (as defined in RFC2045). Without those headers, 
> there is no definitive way for the mail client to know what the content 
> is. Some MUAs will then default to plain-text and not try to even guess 
> what the content type is. Some (like Eudora which I use) may detect the 
> HTML structure of the message body and render it.
> 
> I am curious how you are creating these messages, are you composing them 
> in an MUA in HTML format or are you cutting and pasting an HTML document 
> from another editor into the message body? If the latter, you are not 
> going to get the correct headers to identify the message content to a 
> MIME compliant MUA. If the former, your MUA should be inserting these 
> headers correctly.
> 
> 
> As stated in section 1 of RFC2046:
> 
> 
>    The first document in this set, 
> <http://www.faqs.org/rfcs//rfcs/rfc2045.html>RFC 2045, defines a number 
> of header
>    fields, including Content-Type. The Content-Type field is used to
>    specify the nature of the data in the body of a MIME entity, by
>    giving media type and subtype identifiers, and by providing auxiliary
>    information that may be required for certain media types.  After the
>    type and subtype names, the remainder of the header field is simply a
>    set of parameters, specified in an attribute/value notation.  The
>    ordering of parameters is not significant.

Thanks, I guess its just a matter of inserting the content-type header 
into the message then.  I created these messages with a script that 
saved its output to a file, then used:
mailx -s "subject" me at mydomain.com <filename.html
If only there is a command line mailer that will allow me to add the 
mime type header to the email, then that would allow the message to 
display correctly in both my email client, and the list archives.
Anyone know a way to do this?




From antennex at swbell.net  Thu Sep 21 03:01:54 2006
From: antennex at swbell.net (Jack Stone)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 18:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using the inject message command
Message-ID: <20060921010154.1164.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As a new user, I have most everything tuned well, thanks a lot to this list and of course the excellent program itself.
   
  One thing I have yet to find a good way to do is the use of the inject command for sending out a message from the command line. Nothing mysterious about the command, but my efforts do not produce my objective based on the various ways I tried.
   
  I need this ability because we receive messages from our "Question Manager" about some technical question. If we cannot answer from within, we send the question to the tech list containing some 2000+ experts. Usually an answer (or several) is/are received within minutes to hours.
   
  In my old list program majordomo, I could format the question using the sender's info and inject it into the list and it looked as it was originally received directly from the sender and the info pluged into the body of the "injection" would all show as the header.
   
  Try that with MM shows everything in the body, including the stuff meant for the header. Here's the template I used for majordomo. Perhaps anyone having used majordomo as well as MM will know of what I ask:
   
  From aperson at there.net  date
Received: (routing info)
From: aperson at there.net
To: mylist at example.dom
Subject: A Tech Question
  Hello.  I'm just writing to
consume some bandwidth and
take up space in your mail
  Signed,
The Saint
  -------------------------------------
   
  Thanks!


(^-^)
Best regards,
Jack L. Stone

From mylists2004 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 21 05:37:51 2006
From: mylists2004 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:37:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I somehow copy list settings to another list?
Message-ID: <4b2a6ddc0609202037r69ed0e3ao1a825d50d1461942@mail.gmail.com>

I've setup a mailing list 1 just the way I like it. Can I somehow copy these
settings for all new lists that I create?


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 21 06:33:08 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:33:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List My Other Subscriptions Not working
In-Reply-To: <20060920174739.58946.qmail@web56908.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <20060920174739.58946.qmail@web56908.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c137c61d0244@[10.0.1.4]>

At 10:47 AM -0700 9/20/06, Dave Troiano wrote:

>  If the site's password is the same one you need to use
>  when creating a new list, then I know that password.

You can use the site admin password to create lists, but IIRC there 
can also be a separate list creator password, at least in more recent 
versions of Mailman.  I have never personally seen a list creator 
password, I've always just used the main site admin password.

>  The only interface I have to work with now is the web
>  interface.

The kind of information you're asking for is not available via the 
web.  You have to log on and use the command-line tools, or get 
someone to do that for you.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 21 06:43:00 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:43:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <4511DAF8.4050202@cityfone.net>
References: <PC1760200609181824020484e79492a6@msapiro>
	<45106F1C.9030506@cityfone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060919154759.03a3e520@crimson-dragon.com>
	<4511DAF8.4050202@cityfone.net>
Message-ID: <p06240501c137c6af24b7@[10.0.1.4]>

At 5:21 PM -0700 9/20/06, Justin Zygmont wrote:

>  Thanks, I guess its just a matter of inserting the content-type header
>  into the message then.  I created these messages with a script that
>  saved its output to a file, then used:
>  mailx -s "subject" me at mydomain.com <filename.html

If you build the message yourself, as opposed to using a MIME-aware 
MUA, then yes -- you will also need to build the necessary MIME 
headers and internal infrastructure.  However, this can be a complex 
subject, and I would recommend that you at least look into 
command-line utilities that can help make this process easier.

I can't think of the names of the toolkits off the top of my head, 
but you should be able to find them pretty easily with Google.


But do keep in mind that even command-line MUAs like mailx won't let 
you control your own headers.  If you want to control the headers, 
you will need to feed your formatted message directly to sendmail or 
some other comparable message submission agent.

When I've done that in the past, it's looked something like:

	sendmail -t -fsender at address.he.re.example.com < /path/to/message

>  If only there is a command line mailer that will allow me to add the
>  mime type header to the email, then that would allow the message to
>  display correctly in both my email client, and the list archives.

I'd bet that "mutt" could do that, since it is the MUA that was 
originally written by the guy who also wrote the PGP/MIME RFC, so he 
clearly knows both his crypto/PGP stuff and his MIME stuff.

Note that mutt does give you some control over what goes in the 
headers, but mostly that's for putting in your own "X-" headers and 
not doing critical things like mucking about with the MIME structure 
of the message.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Sep 21 06:42:51 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:42:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using the inject message command
In-Reply-To: <20060921010154.1164.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060921010154.1164.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240502c137c77e5524@[10.0.1.4]>

At 6:01 PM -0700 9/20/06, Jack Stone wrote:

>   Try that with MM shows everything in the body, including the
>  stuff meant for the header. Here's the template I used for
>  majordomo. Perhaps anyone having used majordomo as well as
>  MM will know of what I ask:

Don't use "inject".  That's for Mailman to use internally to send out 
mail messages like password reminders, etc....

Try formatting the message correctly (with all headers, etc...) and 
then submitting that via a proper command-line message submission 
agent, such as sendmail.  When I've done that in the past, it's 
looked something like:

	sendmail -t -fsender at address.he.re.example.com < /path/to/message

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From pmoss at fcg.com  Thu Sep 21 15:49:47 2006
From: pmoss at fcg.com (Moss, Patricia)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive Search not pulling all files
Message-ID: <124DD4FC6807974286C1D375162D443F08F065@pant03.fcg.com>

I am running mailman version 2.1.5.

Everything was functioning normally.  I just received an incident
request stating that the Namazu search was not pulling all archives.

I looked in my NMZ.err file and am seeing the following messages:

/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-author
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-author is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.

/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-date
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-date is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.

/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-subject
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-subject is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.

/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-thread
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
tember-thread is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.

/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/index.html
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/index.html is not
a Pipermail message file! skipped.

/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/pipermail.pck
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/pipermail.pck is
not a Pipermail message file! skipped.

 

 

I am not sure how to go about troubleshooting this issue.  I looked for
the error message in the archives, but did not find it. Any help is
appreciated.  Thank you.

 

Pati

 



This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 16:49:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:49:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using the inject message command
In-Reply-To: <20060921010154.1164.qmail@web82409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609210749020593ffe10c53@msapiro>

Jack Stone wrote:
>   
>  Try that with MM shows everything in the body, including the stuff meant for the header. Here's the template I used for majordomo. Perhaps anyone having used majordomo as well as MM will know of what I ask:
>   
>  From aperson at there.net  date
>Received: (routing info)
>From: aperson at there.net
>To: mylist at example.dom
>Subject: A Tech Question
>  Hello.  I'm just writing to
>consume some bandwidth and
>take up space in your mail
>  Signed,
>The Saint
>  -------------------------------------


If this is an actual representation of the message, there are two
things wrong with it. There must be no spaces preceeding "From ", but
better still, just omit this line. There must be an empty line (a line
containing no characters or whitespace) between the headers and the
body.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 17:05:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:05:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I somehow copy list settings to another
	list?
In-Reply-To: <4b2a6ddc0609202037r69ed0e3ao1a825d50d1461942@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609210805030250ffe10afd@msapiro>

James wrote:

>I've setup a mailing list 1 just the way I like it. Can I somehow copy these
>settings for all new lists that I create?


If you have command line access, see "bin/config_list --help". That's
the only way I know.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 17:44:01 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:44:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reconfirming subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <66454efc0609210302m34c43c56r756cf300aec486f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092108440102343783464b@msapiro>

>I have a question, i hope you can help?


This sort of question should be posted to Mailman-Users at python.org, not
sent directly to me.


>I have a list of around 4000 addresses and some are complaing to
>spamcop and not just unsubscribing themselves. I do not spam, i have
>gone through our GoldMine DB here at work and added all the email
>addresses to a mailing list. These are clients we deal with all the
>time.
>
>I would liket to send out a mail asking all the existing clients to
>reconfirm their subscription, is this possible?


As far as I know, this is not directly possible within existing mailman.

The closest you can come is to use the "Mass Removal" interface (or
bin/remove_members) to remove all the members and then use the "Mass
Subscription" interface to *invite* them to rejoin.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 18:00:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:00:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive Search not pulling all files
In-Reply-To: <124DD4FC6807974286C1D375162D443F08F065@pant03.fcg.com>
Message-ID: <PC176020060921090052062537834805@msapiro>

Moss, Patricia wrote:

>I am running mailman version 2.1.5.
>
>Everything was functioning normally.  I just received an incident
>request stating that the Namazu search was not pulling all archives.
>
>I looked in my NMZ.err file and am seeing the following messages:
>
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-author
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-author is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.
>
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-date
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-date is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.
>
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-subject
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-subject is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.
>
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-thread
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/database/2006-Sep
>tember-thread is not a Pipermail message file! skipped.
>
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/index.html
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/index.html is not
>a Pipermail message file! skipped.
>
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/pipermail.pck
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/pipermail.pck is
>not a Pipermail message file! skipped.
>
> 
>
> 
>
>I am not sure how to go about troubleshooting this issue.  I looked for
>the error message in the archives, but did not find it. Any help is
>appreciated.  Thank you.


First of all, neither Namazu nor the material in FAQ 4.8
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.008.htp>
is a part of our Mailman distribution, so this post is somewhat off
topic for this list.

Second, I don't know anything about Namazu, so the following may be
nonsense.

That said, it seems to me that the above messages are normal
occurrences and are not indicicative of a problem. It appears that
Namazu is looking in the
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/documentumdevelopers/ directory for
messages to index. Presumably it is finding and indexing all the
yyyy-mmmmm/nnnnnn.html files which are the actual archived messages,
and it is telling you that the 'table of contents' and various monthly
index files and the pipermail.pck file that it also sees are not
messages which is correct.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From justin at cityfone.net  Thu Sep 21 19:03:52 2006
From: justin at cityfone.net (Justin Zygmont)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:03:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c137c6af24b7@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <PC1760200609181824020484e79492a6@msapiro>
	<45106F1C.9030506@cityfone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060919154759.03a3e520@crimson-dragon.com>
	<4511DAF8.4050202@cityfone.net> <p06240501c137c6af24b7@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <4512C5F8.8040703@cityfone.net>

Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 5:21 PM -0700 9/20/06, Justin Zygmont wrote:
> 
>>  Thanks, I guess its just a matter of inserting the content-type header
>>  into the message then.  I created these messages with a script that
>>  saved its output to a file, then used:
>>  mailx -s "subject" me at mydomain.com <filename.html
> 
> 
> If you build the message yourself, as opposed to using a MIME-aware MUA, 
> then yes -- you will also need to build the necessary MIME headers and 
> internal infrastructure.  However, this can be a complex subject, and I 
> would recommend that you at least look into command-line utilities that 
> can help make this process easier.
> 
> I can't think of the names of the toolkits off the top of my head, but 
> you should be able to find them pretty easily with Google.
> 
> 
> But do keep in mind that even command-line MUAs like mailx won't let you 
> control your own headers.  If you want to control the headers, you will 
> need to feed your formatted message directly to sendmail or some other 
> comparable message submission agent.
> 
> When I've done that in the past, it's looked something like:
> 
>     sendmail -t -fsender at address.he.re.example.com < /path/to/message
> 
>>  If only there is a command line mailer that will allow me to add the
>>  mime type header to the email, then that would allow the message to
>>  display correctly in both my email client, and the list archives.
> 
> 
> I'd bet that "mutt" could do that, since it is the MUA that was 
> originally written by the guy who also wrote the PGP/MIME RFC, so he 
> clearly knows both his crypto/PGP stuff and his MIME stuff.
> 
> Note that mutt does give you some control over what goes in the headers, 
> but mostly that's for putting in your own "X-" headers and not doing 
> critical things like mucking about with the MIME structure of the message.

thanks, I see it adds proper headers this way, but I still don't see a 
way to control what mime type to use.  I used the sendmail command with 
an html file and it still came through as ascii.  I've found that one 
workaround is to use mutt -a to include the file as an attachment, but 
i'm suprised there's no easy way to do this.  Thanks everyone for your 
help, I think the lesson is to find something other than uuencode when 
sending to mailman so it doesnt spoil the list archives.



From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Thu Sep 21 19:09:39 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:09:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Redirect all -bounce emails
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006021220031807665e48bc10@msapiro>
References: <98a90c220602121900p7d701c73qe2f7ed8019af288e@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006021220031807665e48bc10@msapiro>
Message-ID: <98a90c220609211009k55653965x9be690c01cef4cae@mail.gmail.com>

Hello folks,

I am currently re-directing all the lists -admin -bounce -owner -confirm
-join -leave -owner -request -subscribe -unsubsribe to mailman at name.com

Currently, I administer all the mail lists and so this works well.

Going forward, I would like to make the list ownership of each list to the
relevant project manager. So, the -admin, -bounce, etc of every list will
have to go to a different email.

My Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py looks like below. This was done from my
previous posting in this discussion forum.
# Envelope sender (bounces) is always the site list.
    envsender = 'mailman at name.com'

Is it possible for :
lista -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name1 at name.com
listb -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name2 at name.com
listc -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name3 at name.com

Thanks
Tom




On 2/12/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> >
> >>If you're thinking that you can get around the issue by having all
> bounces
> >from any list be
> >>returned to the 'mailman' list posting address, you could do this in the
> >source code, but >not by using aliases on mine.name.com.
> >
> >Yes, this is precisely what I want to accomplish. Could you point me to
> some
> >place, or the portion of the code that needs to be tinkered with. I am
> not a
> >perl/python person, so this is going to be a huge learning curve for me.
>
>
> There are two obvious ways that jump to mind.
>
> The first, which will address the bounce issue for all mail, is the
> following code at the beginning of the process() function in
> Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py
>
>     # Calculate the non-VERP envelope sender.
>     envsender = msgdata.get('envsender')
>     if envsender is None:
>         if mlist:
>             envsender = mlist.GetBouncesEmail()
>         else:
>             envsender = Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces')
>
> which could simply be replaced by something like
>
>     # Envelope sender (bounces) is always the site list.
>     envsender = 'mailman at name.com'
>
> Don't worry about VERP because it is calculated from envsender.
>
> Another way to do it would be to modify the getListAddress() method
> definition in Mailman/MailList.py to just return 'mailman at name.com'
> when extra is not None and similarly modify get_site_email() in
> Mailman/Utils.py to ignore the extra argument.
>
> Then it might be possible to do it in your outgoing MTA, not with
> aliases, but with some kind of rewrite of the envelope sender on
> outgoing mail if your MTA supports such a thing.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 19:47:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:47:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: archive emails are garbled]
In-Reply-To: <4512C5F8.8040703@cityfone.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092110475602960393f840@msapiro>

Justin Zygmont wrote:
>
>thanks, I see it adds proper headers this way, but I still don't see a 
>way to control what mime type to use.  I used the sendmail command with 
>an html file and it still came through as ascii.


When using sendmail to send a message, the input to sendmail needs to
have all headers as well as the message body. At a minimum, you should
have

From: ...
Subject: ...
Date: ...
To: ...
Message-ID: ...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

<html message body>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 20:55:15 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:55:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One email that won't go through on my
	MailmanListserv...
In-Reply-To: <BAY117-DAV272A4AB18E0B6EBCB0F7B87230@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092111551507507bf2131d@msapiro>

Justin Williams wrote:
>
>While the list works well on almost all occasions, I've encountered one email that I forward to the list that will not ever show up, no matter what I've tried to do.  
>
>The email itself was an HTML formatted (mostly text, but one embedded image) originally forwarded from my Outlook Express email software.
>
>After forwarding the email initially, it never showed up (not emailed back to my account, via mailman... not appearing as an archived message like all other successful emails, etc).
>
>I've since tried resending and/or retying and resending the contents of the email an about a dozen (literally) different ways.
>
>* Kept the HTML, but removed the image
>* Forwarded the image only, deleted the text
>* Reworded the subject-line
>* Reworded the text in the email
>* Stripped all formatting (by copy/pasting the text from the email into notepad) and resending
>* Stripped all formatting (by copy/pasting the text from the email into notepad) and resending as text-only
>* Stripped all formatting (by copy/pasting the text from the email into notepad) and resending using webmail tool rather than OE
>* Contacted my domain host to help troubleshoot using almost all the above as well
>
>No matter what I've done, this email (and only this email) is failing as it's being sent to the mailman list.  I've sent about 8 other emails (with varying complexity, formatting, HTML, images, etc) to the list and each goes through, but this one email is somehow stuck being rejected... even if I reword much of the email.
>
>Does anyone have any ideas about what to do with this?\


You say you "forward" the message to the list. Does this mean it
appears to come from you? If not, check the Privacy Options->Sender
Filters page to see if the address the message appears to come from
(or a pattern that matches it) is mentioned anywhere.

It's hard to even guess without seeing an actual message, and even then
it may not be possible to tell from that alone.

You will need to enlist the cooperation of the host to do the following:

Look in the MTA logs and see whether or not the message is being
received and delivered to Mailman.

Assuming it is, look in Mailman's vette and error logs for clues.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ryu at cse.sc.edu  Thu Sep 21 20:46:04 2006
From: ryu at cse.sc.edu (Seang Chan Ryu)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:46:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sending mail delaying long time.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1158853829.14484.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.0.1158853829.14484.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0609211427300.7914@black>

Hi,
I am new to the mailman software. If anybody can help me help this 
problem and where to look for the information. I will really appreciate 
that.

I send an to the list, but it takes 30 to 40 minutes to deliver the mail.
The list is not long. (10-15 people)
Here is the smtp log

Sep 21 10:26:07 2006 (445) <mailman.36.1158843935.443.masrg at cse.sc.edu> 
smtp for 2 recips, completed in 0.622 seconds

The time it was sent was 9:40 though.
It seem there are a lot of entries in smtp-failure at the same time but 
non of email in smtp-failure log in not on the list.

I use postfix and mailman.
I am sorry that I couldn't be more specific. If somebody can guide me at 
least what to examin, I will really appreciate that.

Seangchan Ryu



From carconni at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 21 21:45:43 2006
From: carconni at earthlink.net (Carconni)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:45:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman just stopped
Message-ID: <26246423.1158867943938.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hi,

Mailman has been working beautifully for awhile now but yesterday it just stopped.  I wound up repairing all of the databases but it happened again today.  I'm getting the following error:

Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) Uncaught runner exception: unknown encoding: gb2312
Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline
    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 74, in process
    prefix_subject(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 262, in prefix_subject
    h.append(s, c)
  File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-117.root~35/usr/share/mailman/pythonlib/email/Header.py", line 285, in append
LookupError: unknown encoding: gb2312


Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) SHUNTING: 1158844276.9904189+1e2464070413bcc3355b914153a142061eb60c6f


Does anyone know what might be causing this and why it would happen suddenly like this.

Thank you in advance for your assistance

Carconni


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 22:36:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:36:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman just stopped
In-Reply-To: <26246423.1158867943938.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092113365901873fe7f516@msapiro>

Carconni wrote:
>
>Mailman has been working beautifully for awhile now but yesterday it just stopped.  I wound up repairing all of the databases but it happened again today.  I'm getting the following error:
>
>Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) Uncaught runner exception: unknown encoding: gb2312
>Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
>    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
>    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
>    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
>  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline
>    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 74, in process
>    prefix_subject(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 262, in prefix_subject
>    h.append(s, c)
>  File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-117.root~35/usr/share/mailman/pythonlib/email/Header.py", line 285, in append
>LookupError: unknown encoding: gb2312
>
>
>Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) SHUNTING: 1158844276.9904189+1e2464070413bcc3355b914153a142061eb60c6f
>
>
>Does anyone know what might be causing this and why it would happen suddenly like this.


There are several things going on here. A message (most likely spam) is
being posted to your list and accepted for delivery. This message has
it's Subject: header encoded in the 'gb2312' (chinese) character set.

Mailman is trying to decode the Subject: so it can add the
subject_prefix and your Mailman/Python installation does not
support/recognize the 'gb2312' character set.

The above error occurs and the message is moved to Mailman's shunt
queue where it will stay untouched until you manually remove it or
queue it for reprocessing using bin/unshunt.

You can use bin/show_qfiles or bin/dumpdb to look at the entries in
qfiles/shunt and then just remove those you don't want.

You can also adjust your list settings to be not so generous in what
you accept.

There is something wrong with your Mailman installation as it should
recognize 'gb2312'.

This specific error should not stop Mailman. It just shunts the message
and that should be the end of it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 21 22:41:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:41:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sending mail delaying long time.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0609211427300.7914@black>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609211341200531f56a4ae7@msapiro>

Seang Chan Ryu wrote:
>
>I send an to the list, but it takes 30 to 40 minutes to deliver the mail.
>The list is not long. (10-15 people)
>Here is the smtp log
>
>Sep 21 10:26:07 2006 (445) <mailman.36.1158843935.443.masrg at cse.sc.edu> 
>smtp for 2 recips, completed in 0.622 seconds
>
>The time it was sent was 9:40 though.
>It seem there are a lot of entries in smtp-failure at the same time but 
>non of email in smtp-failure log in not on the list.


When you receive the post from Mailman, what are all the timestamps in
all the Received: headers? This will indicate where the delay is.

Delivery was to "2 recips". What about the rest of the 10-15 people?

What are the smtp-failure log entries?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bsl04 at uark.edu  Thu Sep 21 23:04:52 2006
From: bsl04 at uark.edu (Brian Lewis)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:04:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] installation move problems
Message-ID: <20060921160452.8eea8054.bsl04@uark.edu>

I moved a mailman installation. I don't know what the old version was,
but the new version is 2.1.9. I moved the installation by tarring up and
copying archives/, data/, and lists/.

I'm getting pending notification messages every day, but there are no
messages to approve in the administration web stuff.

Is there some procedure to check the integrity of the various databases
and whatnot? Or maybe I can somehow save the actual data, perform a
clean installation of mailman, and reimport the data? Or something else.
Please help. Thanks.


From Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com  Fri Sep 22 00:32:13 2006
From: Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com (Jimmy.do at omicron-lab.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:32:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customization for one-way announcement list
Message-ID: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F618@farquaad.us.omicron.at>

Hi, We have Mailman 2.1.5 and are trying to set up and customize Mailman for
a one-way announcement list for a newsletter.  We have read the various
suggestions in the Mailman FAQ and customize the settings, various txt file
for Email, and the 3 public html pages.  We are encountering some parts
where there is no suggestions in the FAQs.  In particular, they are the
following:

1.  The confirmation html page when someone click on the subscription
confirmation link from within the Email.
2.  The login html page to allow the user to unsubscribe and the options
html page (somelists.domain.com/mailman/options/somelist)

Where can we get to these pages (listed above) to customize? Or 

Are they generated by Mailman on the fly?  If so, is it hard to hack the
code, which module, and is it advisable?

Does the new Mailman 2.1.9 provide more customization otpions?

Many thanks for any suggestions or help.

Sincerely,
Jimmy


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 22 00:39:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:39:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] installation move problems
In-Reply-To: <20060921160452.8eea8054.bsl04@uark.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609211539060718f56a4b94@msapiro>

Brian Lewis wrote:

>I moved a mailman installation. I don't know what the old version was,
>but the new version is 2.1.9. I moved the installation by tarring up and
>copying archives/, data/, and lists/.
>
>I'm getting pending notification messages every day, but there are no
>messages to approve in the administration web stuff.


There is more than one Mailman installation on the same or on different
servers. The one sending you the notices is not the one whose admindb
interface you are visiting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 22 00:56:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:56:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customization for one-way announcement list
In-Reply-To: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F618@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609211556400265ab364111@msapiro>

Jimmy wrote:

>Hi, We have Mailman 2.1.5 and are trying to set up and customize Mailman for
>a one-way announcement list for a newsletter.  We have read the various
>suggestions in the Mailman FAQ and customize the settings, various txt file
>for Email, and the 3 public html pages.  We are encountering some parts
>where there is no suggestions in the FAQs.  In particular, they are the
>following:
>
>1.  The confirmation html page when someone click on the subscription
>confirmation link from within the Email.


Built on the fly by Mailman/Cgi/confirm.py.


>2.  The login html page to allow the user to unsubscribe


Built on the fly by Mailman/Cgi/options.py


>and the options
>html page (somelists.domain.com/mailman/options/somelist)


Built from the options.html template (see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.048.htp>).



>Where can we get to these pages (listed above) to customize? Or 
>
>Are they generated by Mailman on the fly?  If so, is it hard to hack the
>code, which module, and is it advisable?


Hacking the code is not difficult if you are reasonably competent with
Python.

The advisability of patching Mailman depends on the resources you have
for maintaining and porting forward the patches to new releases.


>Does the new Mailman 2.1.9 provide more customization otpions?


No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Sep 22 10:31:37 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:31:37 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane
In-Reply-To: <p06240505c1369d2d6a72@[10.0.1.4]> (Brad Knowles's message of
	"Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:27:08 -0500")
References: <20060917062920.2DF677AE@mail.tuunq.com>
	<1C3D3829-13D8-46D8-A53A-CA07B78724D9@python.org>
	<450EB369.7070306@equinephotoart.com>
	<87wt81f8ky.fsf@athene.jamux.com>
	<450ECC39.3080904@equinephotoart.com>
	<87zmcwevbk.fsf@athene.jamux.com> <p06240505c1369d2d6a72@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <87fyek2tg6.fsf@tanko.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:

At 5:09 PM -0400 9/18/06, John A. Martin quoted JC Dill:

>  Where are those restrictions expressed.  I do not see them at
>  <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>.  I do not see
>  them in either the subscription challenge mail nor in the welcome mail
>  pertaining to a recent subscription to mailman-users.

USC Title 17, for US users, and applicable international treaties and
local law, for the rest.

Ie, it's just a matter of copyright, which resides in the poster.
Since it is common practice for mailing lists to have public archives,
it seems reasonable to suppose that license has been granted to the
mailing list owner to keep an archive as well as redistribute to the
list.  In the case of the Mailman lists you have both an explicit
opt-in (which contains documentation of the existence of public
archives IIRC), and publically accessible documentation that there is
a public archive.  I see little risk for the Mailman lists here.

But "all rights reserved" means that other recipients do not get an
implicit license to do the same thing just because they've received a
copy.

IMHO IANAL, but I think the Mailman policy minimizes various risks.
In particular, it is not at all clear to me that posters should
believe they are delegating the right to redistribute their posts to
anybody but the mailing list owner, and I really doubt they think they
are delegating the right to give blanket permission to anybody, not even
the list owner.  I would not permit third party public archives without
talking to a lawyer first.

    Brad> That's a very valid point.  I thought we'd already covered
    Brad> this problem last time the Gmane issue came up, but
    Brad> obviously not.

Of course the policy should be documented.



-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From mark.kubrick at gmail.com  Fri Sep 22 14:38:12 2006
From: mark.kubrick at gmail.com (Mark Kubrick)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:38:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installing mailman with Exim (Fedora) - how?
In-Reply-To: <70f19670609220535n66778e19r8b757000bbc10f69@mail.gmail.com>
References: <70f19670609220535n66778e19r8b757000bbc10f69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70f19670609220538h11de9927pfabfb1404ba0c374@mail.gmail.com>

It seems nigh on the impossible to find a straightforward explaination of
installing MailMan and having it work with Exim (OS is Fedora). Can anybody
help? I am do sick of reading about UID/GIDs, transports and directors and
getting nowhere. All I want is a mailing list!

Regards

Mark


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep 22 15:12:44 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:12:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installing mailman with Exim (Fedora) - how?
In-Reply-To: <70f19670609220538h11de9927pfabfb1404ba0c374@mail.gmail.com>
References: <70f19670609220535n66778e19r8b757000bbc10f69@mail.gmail.com>
	<70f19670609220538h11de9927pfabfb1404ba0c374@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609220612o253e4198ld6ac015b71d42677@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/22/06, Mark Kubrick <mark.kubrick at gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems nigh on the impossible to find a straightforward explaination of
> installing MailMan and having it work with Exim (OS is Fedora). Can anybody
> help? I am do sick of reading about UID/GIDs, transports and directors and
> getting nowhere. All I want is a mailing list!


FAQ 1.19 is entitled 'How do I use Mailman with Exim?'
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.019.htp>

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep 22 15:26:47 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:26:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Redirect all -bounce emails
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220609211009k55653965x9be690c01cef4cae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <98a90c220602121900p7d701c73qe2f7ed8019af288e@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006021220031807665e48bc10@msapiro>
	<98a90c220609211009k55653965x9be690c01cef4cae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609220626n56bcad79w1dfe43c40b652057@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/21/06, Tom Kavanaugh <tomnaugh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it possible for :
> lista -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name1 at name.com
> listb -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name2 at name.com
> listc -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name3 at name.com

Yes, but this is a bad idea unless you really do not want bounce
processing and email command processing and the like.

Just edit your aliases file, or wherever the redirections are done
currently, and make the changes you want.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 22 16:48:39 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:48:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Redirect all -bounce emails
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220609211009k55653965x9be690c01cef4cae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609220748390515e643deca@msapiro>

Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
>
>I am currently re-directing all the lists -admin -bounce -owner -confirm
>-join -leave -owner -request -subscribe -unsubsribe to mailman at name.com
>
>Currently, I administer all the mail lists and so this works well.
>
>Going forward, I would like to make the list ownership of each list to the
>relevant project manager. So, the -admin, -bounce, etc of every list will
>have to go to a different email.
>
>My Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py looks like below. This was done from my
>previous posting in this discussion forum.
># Envelope sender (bounces) is always the site list.
>    envsender = 'mailman at name.com'
>
>Is it possible for :
>lista -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name1 at name.com
>listb -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name2 at name.com
>listc -admin -bounce -owner -confirm etc to go to name3 at name.com


I have looked at the post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-February/049229.html>
and the surrounding thread. I am still a bit hazy on this as it
relates to the -admin, -owner, -confirm, etc. addresses since the
SMTPDirect.py modification only deals with bounces by effectively
replacing the -bounces address with the address of the site list.

The prior thread seems to indicate that using aliases was problematic
because more than one server was involved and you didn't have access
to the incoming mail server for the domain. If it is the case that all
the list mail comes to your server somehow and is then delivered to
Mailman via aliases, then as Patrick suggests, you can use these
aliases to send the mail anywhere you want.

If you want to address just bounces in the same manner as your current
SMTPDirect.py modification that changes

    # Calculate the non-VERP envelope sender.
    envsender = msgdata.get('envsender')
    if envsender is None:
        if mlist:
            envsender = mlist.GetBouncesEmail()
        else:
            envsender = Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces')

to

    # Envelope sender (bounces) is always the site list.
    envsender = 'mailman at example.com'

You could instead change it to

    # Envelope sender (bounces) is always the first list owner.
    if mlist:
        envsender = mlist.owner[0]
    else:
        envsender = 'mailman at example.com'

This would set the envelope sender of any message sent on behalf of a
list to the first address in the 'owner' attribute, and set it to the
fixed address if there wasn't a specific list involved.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From forrest at ce.berkeley.edu  Fri Sep 22 17:21:40 2006
From: forrest at ce.berkeley.edu (Jon Forrest)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:21:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Something Lighter Weight Than Mailman?
Message-ID: <4513FF84.30902@ce.berkeley.edu>

I'm currently running my email lists using simple
Postfix aliases, and they work fine. The only thing
I need is a way to limit who can post to my lists so
that only people in the list can post. From reading
Mailman documention I see Mailman can do this too but
the documentation left me feeling that Mailman is too
much for my simple needs.

Is there a way to limit who can post to a list without
running a high octane application like Mailman?

Cordially,
-- 
Jon Forrest
forrest at ce.berkeley.edu
Computer Resources Manager
Civil and Environmental Engineering Dept.
305 Davis Hall
Univ. of Calif., Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-1710
510-642-0904



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Sep 22 18:28:52 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:28:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Something Lighter Weight Than Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <4513FF84.30902@ce.berkeley.edu>
References: <4513FF84.30902@ce.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609220928mdde2926n717c557bddc1ff75@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/22/06, Jon Forrest <forrest at ce.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> I'm currently running my email lists using simple
> Postfix aliases, and they work fine. The only thing
> I need is a way to limit who can post to my lists so
> that only people in the list can post. From reading
> Mailman documention I see Mailman can do this too but
> the documentation left me feeling that Mailman is too
> much for my simple needs.
>

Most of mailman's functionality will make it easier to do what you're
doing; things like automatically manging addresses that become invalid
(bounce processing), managing membership in a net-friendly and
RFC-compliant manner, and maintaining an archive. For basic lists
(e.g., text-only; non-html), it's very easy to set up and maintain.

That said, if you still don't want to use mailman, you should probably
ask on a more general mailing list. This is, after all, mailman-users-
a list for users of Mailman. :) (Yes, I understand the 'we probably
know' mentality. But you don't call Dell tech support to get advice on
buying an Apple laptop unless what you really want is for them to
convince you to buy a Dell.)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From jheim at math.wisc.edu  Fri Sep 22 18:57:58 2006
From: jheim at math.wisc.edu (John Heim)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:57:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web interface on another machine?
Message-ID: <05a201c6de68$419ab1e0$4ba65c90@vv507j>

We have mailman installed on our mail server. But we don't want to run 
apache on that machine. We already have apache running on another machine. 
Can we have the cgi scripts run on our web server?

What we've done so far is to nfs mount the mailman directory on the web 
server. But we are running into permissions problems.




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Sep 22 19:36:01 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:36:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web interface on another machine?
In-Reply-To: <05a201c6de68$419ab1e0$4ba65c90@vv507j>
References: <05a201c6de68$419ab1e0$4ba65c90@vv507j>
Message-ID: <p0624050bc139ce00daea@[10.0.1.4]>

At 11:57 AM -0500 9/22/06, John Heim wrote:

>  We have mailman installed on our mail server. But we don't want to run
>  apache on that machine. We already have apache running on another machine.
>  Can we have the cgi scripts run on our web server?

In theory, yes.

>  What we've done so far is to nfs mount the mailman directory on the web
>  server. But we are running into permissions problems.

The Mailman developers have done a lot of work to try to make Mailman 
as NFS-safe as possible.  However, any time you introduce NFS into 
this kind of a system, there are going to be a number of additional 
issues you may face which otherwise might not have been a problem.

Mailman has tools that you can use to try to help diagnose such 
problems -- specicially the command-line program "check_perms".  See 
FAQ 4.9 and the site admin documentation for more information.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Sep 22 21:45:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:45:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customization for one-way announcement list
In-Reply-To: <249DE599979CD84683A1C3D94FBD52BB39F61A@farquaad.us.omicron.at>
Message-ID: <PC176020060922124523032876354ebf@msapiro>

Jimmy wrote:

>We are looking at the
>confirm.py script and have several questions.
>
>1.  We want to remove the 3 links (with reference to the administrative and
>overview) but keep the Logos in the footer.  We saw a function:
>doc.additem(mlist.Getmailmanfooter()) and was wondering where is the module
>which contains actual code of the Getmailmanfooter.  Or is there another
>easier way to do what we want?


In general, use grep to answer questions like this. In this case

grep -r GetMailmanFooter Mailman/*

will produce among other output

HTMLFormatter.py:    def GetMailmanFooter(self):


>2.  We noticed there are also a confirm.pyc and confirm.pyo file.  Does the
>system auto-update those when you make changes to confirm.py?


Yes and no. Normally, if the .py file is newer than the .pyc, python
will automatically compile the .py file and update the .pyc (compiled)
file. If python has been run with the -O (optimize) option, it will do
the same with the .pyo file. If python has not been run with -O, it
ignores the .pyo file.

In short, you don't have to be concerned about this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 00:15:58 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:15:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm running mailman 2.1.8  on Solaris 10 (06/06)

After working fine for a month, my mailman install broke this morning  (I
know something must have changed but I can't see what!) Mail sent to lists
ends up in /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out . If I run unshunt, nothing
changes. If I run unshunt /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out, the files go away
from the qfiles directory but no mail is received by the users.

I am not getting any error messages relating to this in any file that I can
see. Nothing in any file in /usr/local/mailman/logs, nothing in any system
or mail error files.

Tearing my hair out here. Thanks for any clues as to what might be causing
this or where to LOOK.

Betsy


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Sat Sep 23 00:34:41 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:34:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to  list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060922153241.064651d8@crimson-dragon.com>

Elizabeth Schwartz sent the message below at 15:15 9/22/2006:
>I'm running mailman 2.1.8  on Solaris 10 (06/06)
>
>After working fine for a month, my mailman install broke this morning  (I
>know something must have changed but I can't see what!) Mail sent to lists
>ends up in /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out . If I run unshunt, nothing
>changes. If I run unshunt /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out, the files go away
>from the qfiles directory but no mail is received by the users.
>
>I am not getting any error messages relating to this in any file that I can
>see. Nothing in any file in /usr/local/mailman/logs, nothing in any system
>or mail error files.
>
>Tearing my hair out here. Thanks for any clues as to what might be causing
>this or where to LOOK.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

You did not mention if you checked that all of your qrunners are 
running. If your Outgoing runner is not working, it would result in 
the behavior you see.

Try the following command to see what qrunners are actually functioning:

ps aux | grep mailman

Have you tried a restart of mailman?


Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Sep 23 00:43:34 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:43:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c13a16e2982e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:15 PM -0400 9/22/06, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:

>  Tearing my hair out here. Thanks for any clues as to what might be causing
>  this or where to LOOK.

I'd be willing to bet that you got a message that came in which had 
some malformed MIME structures, and that has clogged up the queue for 
that list.  More recent versions of Mailman are more resistent to 
this kind of problem, but not completely immune.  If you're not 
already running the latest version (2.1.9), I'd suggest looking into 
making that upgrade.


As for where to look, any time you have questions one of the best 
places to start looking is in the FAQ (see 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>) and the documentation 
(see <http://www.list.org/docs.html>).  In particular, FAQ 3.14 may 
be useful to you.

You should also check the archives of the list, and the instructions 
for doing that are in FAQ 1.18.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 00:55:39 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:55:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609221555t3085175fu53db04585b6178cf@mail.gmail.com>

To follow up to my own post:
I have rebooted twice and restarted twice
I see no interesting error messages in any logs
A few messages occasionally are getting through
I have read the FAQ but found nothing applicable.

If there's a MIME message gunking up the works, where *is* it? The qfiles
subdirectories are all empty

On 9/22/06, Elizabeth Schwartz <betsy.schwartz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm running mailman 2.1.8  on Solaris 10 (06/06)
>
> After working fine for a month, my mailman install broke this morning  (I
> know something must have changed but I can't see what!) Mail sent to lists
> ends up in /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out . If I run unshunt, nothing
> changes. If I run unshunt /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out, the files go away
> from the qfiles directory but no mail is received by the users.
>
> I am not getting any error messages relating to this in any file that I
> can see. Nothing in any file in /usr/local/mailman/logs, nothing in any
> system or mail error files.
>
> Tearing my hair out here. Thanks for any clues as to what might be causing
> this or where to LOOK.
>
> Betsy
>
>


From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 00:56:16 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:56:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221555t3085175fu53db04585b6178cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<a923f15e0609221555t3085175fu53db04585b6178cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609221556o4885d1faya946628635d3848f@mail.gmail.com>

(and yep, all the qrunner processes are running and look OK, from here)

On 9/22/06, Elizabeth Schwartz <betsy.schwartz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To follow up to my own post:
> I have rebooted twice and restarted twice
> I see no interesting error messages in any logs
> A few messages occasionally are getting through
> I have read the FAQ but found nothing applicable.
>
> If there's a MIME message gunking up the works, where *is* it? The qfiles
> subdirectories are all empty
>
> On 9/22/06, Elizabeth Schwartz < betsy.schwartz at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm running mailman 2.1.8  on Solaris 10 (06/06)
> >
> > After working fine for a month, my mailman install broke this morning
> > (I know something must have changed but I can't see what!) Mail sent to
> > lists ends up in /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out . If I run unshunt, nothing
> > changes. If I run unshunt /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out, the files go away
> > from the qfiles directory but no mail is received by the users.
> >
> > I am not getting any error messages relating to this in any file that I
> > can see. Nothing in any file in /usr/local/mailman/logs, nothing in any
> > system or mail error files.
> >
> > Tearing my hair out here. Thanks for any clues as to what might be
> > causing this or where to LOOK.
> >
> > Betsy
> >
> >
>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Sep 23 01:15:41 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:15:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221555t3085175fu53db04585b6178cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<a923f15e0609221555t3085175fu53db04585b6178cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c13a1e6f5d4b@[10.0.1.4]>

At 6:55 PM -0400 9/22/06, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:

>  I have read the FAQ but found nothing applicable.

FAQ 3.14 has most of the relevant advice that I could provide.  If 
you didn't find anything there that was helpful to you, then I'm not 
sure I can say much of anything more.

>  If there's a MIME message gunking up the works, where *is* it? The qfiles
>  subdirectories are all empty

It might be in qfiles/shunt/, but if that was the case then it 
shouldn't be gumming up the rest of the works.  If it was gumming up 
the works, it should be in qfiles/in/.

An alternative may be that your MTA keeps trying to deliver it to 
Mailman, but is not successful.  So, the message isn't recorded in 
the Mailman queues, and the MTA keeps trying to redeliver the message.


Either way, this should show up in the Mailman logs and in the MTA logs.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 23 01:57:09 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:57:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221515k128b314fp229e27581925c70b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609221657090953c025fc82@msapiro>

Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
>After working fine for a month, my mailman install broke this morning  (I
>know something must have changed but I can't see what!) Mail sent to lists
>ends up in /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out . If I run unshunt, nothing
>changes. If I run unshunt /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out, the files go away
>from the qfiles directory but no mail is received by the users.



unshunt should only be run to move files from qfiles/shunt back to
their original queue after fixing the problem that caused them to be
shunted in the first place. The optional directory argument to unshunt
is intended for cases where you've moved files from qfiles/shunt to
some other (non-queue) directory. Running unshunt on a qfiles/
directory other than qfiles/shunt at best will do nothing and at worst
will result in lost messages (as it apparently did here).


>I am not getting any error messages relating to this in any file that I can
>see. Nothing in any file in /usr/local/mailman/logs, nothing in any system
>or mail error files.


Are there entries in the files in /usr/local/mailman/logs? If so, what
is in 'error', 'qrunner', 'smtp' and 'smtp-failure' whether you think
it's relevant or not. If not, then your Mailman logs are somewhere
else. Look at the LOG_DIR setting in Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 23 02:11:38 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:11:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221555t3085175fu53db04585b6178cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC176020060922171138098475f1f3de@msapiro>

Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:

>To follow up to my own post:
>I have rebooted twice and restarted twice
>I see no interesting error messages in any logs
>A few messages occasionally are getting through
>I have read the FAQ but found nothing applicable.
>
>If there's a MIME message gunking up the works, where *is* it? The qfiles
>subdirectories are all empty


If the qfiles/* directories are all empty, Mailman has nothing to do.
Are there new posts being archived and not being sent to the list?

You previous report indicated that posts were being archived, but were
sitting in qfiles/out and not being delivered. This is a symptom of
OutgoingRunner not processing or some problem between OutgoingRunner
and the outgoing MTA, but then you ran "bin/unshunt qfiles/out" which
may have caused the loss of all the queued, outgoing messages.

Now you may have a different symptom.

There is probably not a message gunking up the works. If there is one,
it is most likely in lists/<listname>/digest.mbox, but the symptom of
that is different from what you've reported.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 04:51:40 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:51:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060922171138098475f1f3de@msapiro>
References: <a923f15e0609221555t3085175fu53db04585b6178cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC176020060922171138098475f1f3de@msapiro>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609221951g2e6f47c5v7b08c5df488f3fa@mail.gmail.com>

Sigh... OK, thank you all for the help. I think I understand now!

My theory: my **original** problem was a large HTML message gunking up the
out box. Having cleaned that out, it sounds like  I then proceeded to trash
an afternoon's worth of messages by trying to flush the queue incorrectly.
Fortunately these are all low-volume lists and the messages *did* reach the
list archives. But still, embarassing. But it does explain why none of the
troubleshooting steps in the FAQ revealed any problems. I'm not clear why
new messages failed to go out right away, but possibly with all the restarts
and such I made some temporary error with the qrunner processes or some
other such thing. However it happened, mail is now flowing smoothly.

Can someone point me to a detailed explanation of the path a message takes
from the time it is first forwarded to mailman, to the time when it is sent
out to the MTA for delivery? Some time elapses there, and I'd like to
understand in detail what's going on.

thank you all for all your help.


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 23 06:07:15 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:07:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609221951g2e6f47c5v7b08c5df488f3fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>

Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
>My theory: my **original** problem was a large HTML message gunking up the
>out box.


I'm not sure about this part. What's in Mailman's 'smtp' log?


>Having cleaned that out, it sounds like  I then proceeded to trash
>an afternoon's worth of messages by trying to flush the queue incorrectly.


I'm afraid so.


>Can someone point me to a detailed explanation of the path a message takes
>from the time it is first forwarded to mailman, to the time when it is sent
>out to the MTA for delivery? Some time elapses there, and I'd like to
>understand in detail what's going on.


There shouldn't be much delay in Mailman. There may be delay in the
incoming MTA and in the SMTP handoff to the outgoing MTA (here again,
Mailman's 'smtp' log will show how much) and in the outgoing MTA
itself, but processing through Mailman is fairly quick.

Here's a rough sketch of what happens.

The incoming MTA receives a post for list and pipes it to the wrapper
with the command "| path/to/mail/mailman post list".

The wrapper invokes the scripts/post script which queues the message in
the qfiles/in queue for list.

IncomingRunner picks up the queue entry and processes it through the
pipeline of handler modules. The pipeline is normally the one defined
as GLOBAL_PIPELINE in Defaults.py. The handler modules do various
things to the message and can cause it to be rejected, discarded or
held for approval, but assuming that it is a valid post which will be
processed all the way through, after various other handlers are
called, the message is passed through
   ToDigest - which appends it to the lists digest.mbox and triggers a
              digest if the size threshold is reached.
   ToArchive - which queues a copy in qfiles/archive where it is picked
               up by ArchRunner and archived
   ToUsenet - which, if mail to news gatewaying is done for the list,
              queues a copy in qfiles/news for NewsRunner
a couple of housekeeping handlers and finally
   ToOutgoing - which queues the message in qfiles/out
and then IncomingRunner is done with this message.

OutgoingRunner picks up the entry from qfiles/out, and passes it to the
delivery module, normally SMTPDirect, to deliver it to the MTA for the
recipients (the list of which was built earlier by the CalcRecips
handler which is part of the IncomingRunner pipeline).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 23 06:32:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:32:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>


Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>>
>>Having cleaned that out, it sounds like  I then proceeded to trash
>>an afternoon's worth of messages by trying to flush the queue incorrectly.
>
>
>I'm afraid so.


In case anyone is interested in the details, what actually happened
when you ran bin/unshunt against qfiles/out is unshunt processed each
queue entry as follows:

It looked for the "original queue". This is placed in the message
metadata by the shunting process to tell unshunt to which queue to
restore the entry. Since the message was never shunted, there was no
"original queue" so unshunt put it in the default 'in' queue. There it
was picked up by IncomingRunner. Now the issue is that the message
metadata in the queue entry has a 'pipeline' attribute which happens
to be the empty list because when it was previously passed to the
ToOutgoing handler, that was the last entry that was popped off the
list leaving the list empty. Then, IncomingRunner proceeded to pass
the message through the empty pipeline and was immediately finished
without doing anything.

Thus, the messages were all moved from the 'out' queue to the 'in'
queue where IncomingRunner effectively recognized that it had already
completely processed the message so this time it discarded the queue
entry without doing anything.

The moral is "don't unshunt anything which wasn't shunted to begin
with".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From md6969 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 10:27:49 2006
From: md6969 at gmail.com (Martin Dennett (Gmail))
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 09:27:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Daft question time
Message-ID: <4514F005.2050806@gmail.com>

I've had mails from a number of ex-users of saying that they're told 
they're no longer members when they try to post (they're not!) but that 
they can still see the archives. Is it just a case of setting the "Is 
archive file source for public or private archival?" on the Archiving 
Options page to "private" to prevent them from seeing the mail archive?

Like I said - daft question....

MD


From stefan at gabox.de  Sat Sep 23 13:06:38 2006
From: stefan at gabox.de (Stefan Grote)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:06:38 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609191920440812c0aaa018@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609191920440812c0aaa018@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4515153E.8020101@gabox.de>

Hi Mark,

Mark Sapiro schrieb:

>Stefan Grote wrote:
>
>  
>
>>i don't touch the config. its ah fresh install from a Debian packet...
>>any ideas anyway?
>>    
>>
>
>Try changing
>
>STEALTH_MODE = 1
>
>to
>
>STEALTH_MODE = 0
>  
>
thanks a lot! it works. The rights of the log file was wrong. I don't 
now why.anyway my mailman webinterface works now.
another question..what is about the mailinglist mail adress? my mailman 
sends me a message. but the mail adress of my ml doesn't exits.
must i add the adress per hand?

>in scripts/driver and see if that gets you a more informative message.
>Also check the web server error log.
>
>If you're still stuck, try the following command as the mailman user
>
>python scripts/driver listinfo
>
>
>  
>



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 23 15:49:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:49:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Daft question time
In-Reply-To: <4514F005.2050806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609230649120671de709d4b@msapiro>

Martin Dennett wrote:

>I've had mails from a number of ex-users of saying that they're told 
>they're no longer members when they try to post (they're not!) but that 
>they can still see the archives. Is it just a case of setting the "Is 
>archive file source for public or private archival?" on the Archiving 
>Options page to "private" to prevent them from seeing the mail archive?


Yes. Setting archive to private will require anyone visiting the
archive to go through the 'private' CGI and be authorized. The
'public' symlink will be removed and the 'pipermail' URL will no
longer work.

All links to the archive on Mailman's pages will be changed
automatically, but if you have any saved 'pipermail' URLs to archive
messages, they will no longer work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Sep 23 15:56:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:56:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <4515153E.8020101@gabox.de>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609230656560218de709bb2@msapiro>

Stefan Grote wrote:

>another question..what is about the mailinglist mail adress? my mailman 
>sends me a message. but the mail adress of my ml doesn't exits.
>must i add the adress per hand?


You must inform your MTA how to deliver to Mailman lists. How to do
this depends on the MTA. It may be done by manually adding aliases or
some other way. See
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/mail-server.html> and item 2 in
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From md6969 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 16:37:16 2006
From: md6969 at gmail.com (Martin Dennett (Gmail))
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:37:16 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Daft question time
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609230649120671de709d4b@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609230649120671de709d4b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4515469C.6090102@gmail.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Martin Dennett wrote:
>
>   
>> I've had mails from a number of ex-users of saying that they're told 
>> they're no longer members when they try to post (they're not!) but that 
>> they can still see the archives. Is it just a case of setting the "Is 
>> archive file source for public or private archival?" on the Archiving 
>> Options page to "private" to prevent them from seeing the mail archive?
>>     
>
>
> Yes. Setting archive to private will require anyone visiting the
> archive to go through the 'private' CGI and be authorized. The
> 'public' symlink will be removed and the 'pipermail' URL will no
> longer work.
>
> All links to the archive on Mailman's pages will be changed
> automatically, but if you have any saved 'pipermail' URLs to archive
> messages, they will no longer work.
Thanks Mark. Duly updated.

Rgds

MD


From greened at obbligato.org  Sun Sep 24 04:13:45 2006
From: greened at obbligato.org (David A. Greene)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:13:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Discard Script?
Message-ID: <4515E9D9.90500@obbligato.org>

I've got a list that was so inundated with spam, the admin web page
does not load fast enough before the browser times out.  I've set
the list to autodiscard from non-members but I need to clean out
the moderation queue.

Is there a way to discard all messages in the moderation queue
without using the web interface?

                              -Dave


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Sep 24 05:09:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 20:09:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Discard Script?
In-Reply-To: <4515E9D9.90500@obbligato.org>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609232009400609d4457609@msapiro>

David A. Greene wrote:
>
>Is there a way to discard all messages in the moderation queue
>without using the web interface?


bin/discard data/heldmsg-LISTNAME-*.pck

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From lists at macferrin.com  Sun Sep 24 07:20:36 2006
From: lists at macferrin.com (Ken MacFerrin)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:20:36 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple/dynamic outbound smtp hosts?
Message-ID: <451615A4.3010905@macferrin.com>

I have a Debian server running 3 instances of postfix (2.3) with
separate domains that I would like to integrate with Mailman (2.1.8).
At this point I have the web interfaces and incoming mail to the lists
running fine using one Mailman install with
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS and the postfix-to-mailman.py script but
have one remaining problem with outbound smtp.  I'd like to avoid having
to maintain multiple Mailman installs but don't want any overlap between
the domains in the mailing lists email headers by having to relay .

My core issue is that I can't find a way to dynamically control what
smtp host Mailman uses for outbound mail.  I'd like to do something
similar to what amavis-new does for this situation and have Mailman use
the same domain name that it receives a message on for the outbound
mail.  The problem is that Mailman is receiving the mail through a pipe
transport so everything appears to come from localhost.  As an
alternative, I'd like to find a way to tell Mailman to use the domain
name of the mailing list for a message as the smtp server instead of the
static SMTPHOST.

I've been trying to modify SMTPDirect.py to do my bidding but my Python
skills are sorely lacking so any help would be greatly appreciated.  My
initial attempts have been to try to substitute the "mm_cfg.SMTPHOST"
variable with "mlist.host_name".  Obviously being able to implement a
solution directly in the mm_cfg file would be preferred but I'm not sure
that's possible..

original SMTPDirect code:
-------
class Connection:
    def __init__(self):
        self.__conn = None

    def __connect(self):
        self.__conn = smtplib.SMTP()
        self.__conn.connect(mm_cfg.SMTPHOST, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION


modified code:
--------
class Connection:
    def __init__(self):
        self.__conn = None

    def __connect(self):
        self.__conn = smtplib.SMTP()
        syslog('smtp-failure', 'host = %s, port = %s', mlist.host_name,
mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
        x = self.__conn.connect(mlist.host_name, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
        syslog('smtp-failure', 'connect returns: %s', x)
        self.__conn.local_hostname = 'localhost'
        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION
        self.__set_debuglevel = 1


-------
Unfortunately, this fails with the following errors in the log:

Sep 23 20:51:28 2006 (3126) Uncaught runner exception: SMTP instance has
no attribute 'sock'
Sep 23 20:51:28 2006 (3126) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py", line 73, in
_dispose
    self._func(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 181, in
process
    conn.quit()
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 102, in quit
    self.__conn.quit()
  File "smtplib.py", line 716, in quit
    self.docmd("quit")
  File "smtplib.py", line 377, in docmd
    self.putcmd(cmd,args)
  File "smtplib.py", line 333, in putcmd
    self.send(str)
  File "smtplib.py", line 318, in send
    if self.sock:
AttributeError: SMTP instance has no attribute 'sock'

Thanks,
Ken




From Justin at Haynes.net  Sun Sep 24 13:43:47 2006
From: Justin at Haynes.net (Justin H Haynes)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 05:43:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing an archive in such a way as to populate
 the associated newsgroup.
Message-ID: <45166F73.9050202@Haynes.net>

I set up a list recently, although actually a list by the same name has
existed for 8 years and has changed hands and software numerous times.
Mailman works very well for me and my list.  I have the mail<>news
gateway set up bidirectionally, and it works great as well.  Several of
us either use mail or news and see each others posts threading properly.

The problem I am now trying to solve is how to get one 20,000 mailbox
file into the newsgroup.  This file has messages from different list
softwares, though I believe most were mailman.

I would consider this post off topic, were it not for the presence of
Queue/NewsRunner.py which seems to have a lot of the necessary
functionailty.

So my question is:

Suppose I were to temporarily turn off delivery to all the subscribers,
and then somehow run the entire archive through Mailman in such a way
that it were to deliver all the messages to the list.  Would such an
approach possibly be successful in getting all the messages into the
newsgroup?

Can mailman be invoked at the command line something like this?:

cat archive.mbx | <some mailman executable>


Thanks,

Justin




From msapiro at value.net  Sun Sep 24 17:19:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:19:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing an archive in such a way as to
	populatethe associated newsgroup.
In-Reply-To: <45166F73.9050202@Haynes.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609240819580718320167c8@msapiro>

Justin H Haynes wrote:
>
>Suppose I were to temporarily turn off delivery to all the subscribers,
>and then somehow run the entire archive through Mailman in such a way
>that it were to deliver all the messages to the list.  Would such an
>approach possibly be successful in getting all the messages into the
>newsgroup?


I don't think it is necessary to do that. As an experiment, you could
try extracting a single message from your archive.mbx (into say
msg.txt) and then do

bin/inject --listname=<listname> --queue=news msg.txt


>Can mailman be invoked at the command line something like this?:
>
>cat archive.mbx | <some mailman executable>


The problem here is that AFAIK there's nothing in Mailman you can use
directly to 'parse' the mbx file. There's a Mailbox class which is
essentially the standard Python mailbox.PortableUnixMailbox class
which has a next() method to get the messages one by one, but no
direct command (other than bin/arch) that processes mailbox files.

Assuming the experiment above works, you could probably create a simple
script in Python (or perl or even a shell script) that would extract
the messages one by one from the mailbox and pipe them to

bin/inject --listname=<listname> --queue=news

(bin/inject reads stdin if no filename arg is given).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Sep 24 18:06:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:06:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple/dynamic outbound smtp hosts?
In-Reply-To: <451615A4.3010905@macferrin.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092409060300782feae5d1@msapiro>

Ken MacFerrin wrote:
>
>I've been trying to modify SMTPDirect.py to do my bidding but my Python
>skills are sorely lacking so any help would be greatly appreciated.  My
>initial attempts have been to try to substitute the "mm_cfg.SMTPHOST"
>variable with "mlist.host_name".


This should work.


>Obviously being able to implement a
>solution directly in the mm_cfg file would be preferred but I'm not sure
>that's possible..
>
>original SMTPDirect code:
>-------
>class Connection:
>    def __init__(self):
>        self.__conn = None
>
>    def __connect(self):
>        self.__conn = smtplib.SMTP()
>        self.__conn.connect(mm_cfg.SMTPHOST, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
>        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION
>
>
>modified code:
>--------
>class Connection:
>    def __init__(self):
>        self.__conn = None
>
>    def __connect(self):
>        self.__conn = smtplib.SMTP()
>        syslog('smtp-failure', 'host = %s, port = %s', mlist.host_name,
>mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)


What do you get in smtp-failure from this?


>        x = self.__conn.connect(mlist.host_name, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)


I don't think this is related to your problem, but instead of the
above, do the following:

        if mlist:
            host = mlist.host_name
        else:
            host = mm_cfg.SMTPHOST
        x = self.__conn.connect(host, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)


>        syslog('smtp-failure', 'connect returns: %s', x)


and what do you get from this?


>        self.__conn.local_hostname = 'localhost'


I don't know why you want to do this. Also, if you need to do it, it is
better to give local_hostname='localhost' as an argument to the
smtplib.SMTP() constructor.



>        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION
>        self.__set_debuglevel = 1


This does nothing useful. what you want is

        self.__conn.set_debuglevel(1)

and I would put it earlier - right after "self.__conn =
smtplib.SMTP()". Debug messages should go to Mailman's error log.


>
>
>-------
>Unfortunately, this fails with the following errors in the log:
>
>Sep 23 20:51:28 2006 (3126) Uncaught runner exception: SMTP instance has
>no attribute 'sock'
>Sep 23 20:51:28 2006 (3126) Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
>    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
>    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py", line 73, in
>_dispose
>    self._func(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 181, in
>process
>    conn.quit()
>  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 102, in quit
>    self.__conn.quit()
>  File "smtplib.py", line 716, in quit
>    self.docmd("quit")
>  File "smtplib.py", line 377, in docmd
>    self.putcmd(cmd,args)
>  File "smtplib.py", line 333, in putcmd
>    self.send(str)
>  File "smtplib.py", line 318, in send
>    if self.sock:
>AttributeError: SMTP instance has no attribute 'sock'


I don't see how this specific error can occur. Perhaps the additional
debug information will help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 25 05:09:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:09:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple/dynamic outbound smtp hosts?
In-Reply-To: <4517384C.3080702@macferrin.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609242009460765c2b68ccb@msapiro>

Ken MacFerrin wrote:
>> 
>> What do you get in smtp-failure from this?
>
>Currently I don't get anything.. I only get the errors I listed in my
>last email in /var/log/mailman/error.  The /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure
>log remains empty.


Yes, I overlooked the blindingly obvious - see below.


>>>        self.__conn.local_hostname = 'localhost'
>> 
>> 
>> I don't know why you want to do this. Also, if you need to do it, it is
>> better to give local_hostname='localhost' as an argument to the
>> smtplib.SMTP() constructor.
>
>I was doing this to hide the primary hostname for the machine from
>showing up in the Received header for mail being passed from Mailman to
>the outbound virtual domain smtp server since I don't want the headers
>to list the machine's fqdn in messages for the virtual domains.  Before
>doing this I was getting:
>Received: from host.domain.name by smtp.virtualdomain.com (Postfix)...
>
>Doing this I now get:
>Received: from localhost by smtp.virtualdomain.com (Postfix)...


OK. I understand.


>>>        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION
>>>        self.__set_debuglevel = 1
>> 
>> 
>> This does nothing useful. what you want is
>> 
>>         self.__conn.set_debuglevel(1)
>> 
>> and I would put it earlier - right after "self.__conn =
>> smtplib.SMTP()". Debug messages should go to Mailman's error log.
>
>I tried as you mentioned here but kept getting the following error when
>doing so:
>Sep 24 18:42:45 2006 (23668) Uncaught runner exception: Connection
>instance has no attribute '_Connection__set_debuglevel'


I don't understand the above error. It works for me.


>Here's the code I'm using now:
>
>    def __connect(self):
>        self.__conn = smtplib.SMTP()
>        self.__set_debuglevel = 1
>        if mlist:
>            host = mlist.host_name


The blindingly obvious - mlist is undefined.


>        else:
>            host = mm_cfg.SMTPHOST
>        syslog('smtp-failure', 'host = %s, port = %s', host,
>mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
>        x = self.__conn.connect(host, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
>        syslog('smtp-failure', 'connect returns: %s', x)
>        self.__conn.local_hostname = 'localhost'
>        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION



The attached patch works. This is a 2.1.9 base, you may have to adjust
the line numbers and of course remove the debugging stuff.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-------------- next part --------------
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From lists at macferrin.com  Mon Sep 25 05:40:47 2006
From: lists at macferrin.com (Ken MacFerrin)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:40:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple/dynamic outbound smtp hosts?
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609242009460765c2b68ccb@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609242009460765c2b68ccb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <45174FBF.8080207@macferrin.com>

Mark, thank you so much.  That did it.  Sorry I neglected to include the
list in my last reply.  I've just applied your patch and the headers are
now perfect on each domain's lists.  Many hours of frustration have now
come to an end and I can re-enable spf and domainkeys for these lists.

Sincerely,
Ken


>>> What do you get in smtp-failure from this?
>> Currently I don't get anything.. I only get the errors I listed in my
>> last email in /var/log/mailman/error.  The /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure
>> log remains empty.
> 
> 
> Yes, I overlooked the blindingly obvious - see below.
> 
> 
>>>>        self.__conn.local_hostname = 'localhost'
>>>
>>> I don't know why you want to do this. Also, if you need to do it, it is
>>> better to give local_hostname='localhost' as an argument to the
>>> smtplib.SMTP() constructor.
>> I was doing this to hide the primary hostname for the machine from
>> showing up in the Received header for mail being passed from Mailman to
>> the outbound virtual domain smtp server since I don't want the headers
>> to list the machine's fqdn in messages for the virtual domains.  Before
>> doing this I was getting:
>> Received: from host.domain.name by smtp.virtualdomain.com (Postfix)...
>>
>> Doing this I now get:
>> Received: from localhost by smtp.virtualdomain.com (Postfix)...
> 
> 
> OK. I understand.
> 
> 
>>>>        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION
>>>>        self.__set_debuglevel = 1
>>>
>>> This does nothing useful. what you want is
>>>
>>>         self.__conn.set_debuglevel(1)
>>>
>>> and I would put it earlier - right after "self.__conn =
>>> smtplib.SMTP()". Debug messages should go to Mailman's error log.
>> I tried as you mentioned here but kept getting the following error when
>> doing so:
>> Sep 24 18:42:45 2006 (23668) Uncaught runner exception: Connection
>> instance has no attribute '_Connection__set_debuglevel'
> 
> 
> I don't understand the above error. It works for me.
> 
> 
>> Here's the code I'm using now:
>>
>>    def __connect(self):
>>        self.__conn = smtplib.SMTP()
>>        self.__set_debuglevel = 1
>>        if mlist:
>>            host = mlist.host_name
> 
> 
> The blindingly obvious - mlist is undefined.
> 
> 
>>        else:
>>            host = mm_cfg.SMTPHOST
>>        syslog('smtp-failure', 'host = %s, port = %s', host,
>> mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
>>        x = self.__conn.connect(host, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
>>        syslog('smtp-failure', 'connect returns: %s', x)
>>        self.__conn.local_hostname = 'localhost'
>>        self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION
> 
> 
> 
> The attached patch works. This is a 2.1.9 base, you may have to adjust
> the line numbers and of course remove the debugging stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --- Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py	2006-04-15 17:38:40.984375000 -0700
> +++ Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py	2006-09-24 19:45:40.671875000 -0700
> @@ -56,12 +56,21 @@
>  
>  # Manage a connection to the SMTP server
>  class Connection:
> -    def __init__(self):
> +    def __init__(self, mlist):
>          self.__conn = None
> +        self.mlist = mlist
>  
>      def __connect(self):
>          self.__conn = smtplib.SMTP()
> -        self.__conn.connect(mm_cfg.SMTPHOST, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
> +        self.__conn.set_debuglevel(1)
> +        if self.mlist:
> +            host = self.mlist.host_name
> +        else:
> +            host = mm_cfg.SMTPHOST
> +        syslog('smtp-failure', 'host = %s, port = %s', host, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
> +        x = self.__conn.connect(host, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
> +        syslog('smtp-failure', 'connect returns: %s', x)
> +        self.__conn.local_hostname = 'localhost'
>          self.__numsessions = mm_cfg.SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION
>  
>      def sendmail(self, envsender, recips, msgtext):
> @@ -149,7 +158,7 @@
>      # This means at worst, the last chunk for which delivery was attempted
>      # could get duplicates but not every one, and no recips should miss the
>      # message.
> -    conn = Connection()
> +    conn = Connection(mlist)
>      try:
>          msgdata['undelivered'] = chunks
>          while chunks:



From mavery at mail.otherwhen.com  Mon Sep 25 06:20:34 2006
From: mavery at mail.otherwhen.com (Mike Avery)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:20:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I send to mailing list but not ported newsgroup?
Message-ID: <45175912.2000500@mail.otherwhen.com>

Due to demand, I'm porting a few usenet newsgroups to mailing lists, and 
that is working pretty well.

However, every now and then I'd like to send administrivia to just the 
mailing list subscribers.  Is there an easy way to do that?  Or even a 
not-so-easy way?

Thanks,
Mike

-- 
...The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

				



From carconni at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 25 07:49:26 2006
From: carconni at earthlink.net (Carconni)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:49:26 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Mailman just stopped
Message-ID: <28040192.1159163366598.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

First, thank you Mr. Sapiro for all the help you provide us.  I couldn't have gotten as far as I have with my mailmain program without you.

Out of desperation, I backed up the inbox (/private/var/mailman/qfiles/in) and dumped it and the lists just started working again.  I've started moving mail back little by little and everything seems to be okay now.

I'm still not sure what happened.  Aside from the logs I've already posted, there was nothing else to indicate what went wrong.  I will however look into rebuilding my mailman install if you believe that the installation should recoginize gb2312.

Thanks again and until the next calamity,

Constance

Carconni wrote

Mailman has been working beautifully for awhile now but yesterday it just stopped.  I wound up repairing all of the databases but it happened again today.  I'm getting the following error:

Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) Uncaught runner exception: unknown encoding: gb2312
Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
   self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
 File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
   keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
 File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
   more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
 File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline
   sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
 File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 74, in process
   prefix_subject(mlist, msg, msgdata)
 File "/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 262, in prefix_subject
   h.append(s, c)
 File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-117.root~35/usr/share/mailman/pythonlib/email/Header.py", line 285, in append
LookupError: unknown encoding: gb2312


Sep 21 06:11:17 2006 (15075) SHUNTING: 1158844276.9904189+1e2464070413bcc3355b914153a142061eb60c6f


Does anyone know what might be causing this and why it would happen suddenly like this.


There are several things going on here. A message (most likely spam) is
being posted to your list and accepted for delivery. This message has
it's Subject: header encoded in the 'gb2312' (chinese) character set.

Mailman is trying to decode the Subject: so it can add the
subject_prefix and your Mailman/Python installation does not
support/recognize the 'gb2312' character set.

The above error occurs and the message is moved to Mailman's shunt
queue where it will stay untouched until you manually remove it or
queue it for reprocessing using bin/unshunt.

You can use bin/show_qfiles or bin/dumpdb to look at the entries in
qfiles/shunt and then just remove those you don't want.

You can also adjust your list settings to be not so generous in what
you accept.

There is something wrong with your Mailman installation as it should
recognize 'gb2312'.

This specific error should not stop Mailman. It just shunts the message
and that should be the end of it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 25 16:03:15 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:03:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I send to mailing list but not ported
	newsgroup?
In-Reply-To: <45175912.2000500@mail.otherwhen.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609250703150890040bf509@msapiro>

Mike Avery wrote:
>
>However, every now and then I'd like to send administrivia to just the 
>mailing list subscribers.  Is there an easy way to do that?  Or even a 
>not-so-easy way?


The obvious, not very good way is to set gateway_to_news to No, post
your message and then set gateway_to_news back to Yes. The obvious
drawbacks are that this is tedious, and any other posts that come to
the list while gateway_to_news is off will not be sent to the
newsgroup.

A better way would be to modify Mailman/Handlers/ToUsenet.py to
recognize something in your post (a special header, a code in the
subject, ...) and skip it.

Still better would be to make a custom handler (see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.067.htp>)
which would recognize your post and set fromusenet = True in the
message metadata. Adding this handler just before ToUsenet in the
pipeline will allow it to recognize your administrivia and fake
ToUsenet into ignoring the post because it came from Usenet.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Mon Sep 25 16:55:58 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:55:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609250755n4f7bdc1aqefdd34e38fec315f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/22/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> The moral is "don't unshunt anything which wasn't shunted to begin
> with".

Might it be worthwhile to add a cautionary note to unshunt's help
files, to the effect that it should ONLY be used on qfiles/shunt, and
that its use on other queues will probably result in lost messages?

Alternatively, maybe have it detect thigns that weren't actually
shunted (i.e., messages that don't have the original queue attribute
you mentioned), and refuse to operate on these without being, say,
--forced ?

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From mark at downtownhelpdesk.com  Mon Sep 25 16:51:30 2006
From: mark at downtownhelpdesk.com (Help Desk)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:51:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade issue
Message-ID: <006901c6e0b2$1dac7600$6e0116ac@X60>

One of our bone-headed admins was playing around on the server and "broke" something in Mailman.

Rather than try to fix it (I'm not a Python programmer!), I decided it was time for an update via ports anyway.

We get the following string of errors during the upgrade phase, then a stop:


Updating mailing list: river_city_referrals
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "bin/update", line 789, in ?
    errors = main()
  File "bin/update", line 679, in main
    errors = errors + dolist(listname)
  File "bin/update", line 192, in dolist
    mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 130, in __init__
    self.Load()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 629, in Load
    dict, e = self.__load(file)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 602, in __load
    dict = loadfunc(fp)
AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'append'
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman/work/mailman-2.1.9.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman.


In addition, when attempting to use the CGI interface, it does not run.  We get the following errors (in the httpd-error log -- we're running Apache 2.0.54)

[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----]
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [----- Traceback ------]
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] Traceback (most recent call last):
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 82, in run_main
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     immediate=1)
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/StampedLogger.py", line 52, in __init__
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     Logger.__init__(self, category, nofail, immediate)
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 50, in __init__
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     self.__get_f()
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 68, in __get_f
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     1)
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/codecs.py", line 666, in open
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     file = __builtin__.open(filename, mode, buffering)
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/usr/local/mailman/logs/error'
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [----- Python Information -----]
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] sys.version     = 2.4.3 (#2, Jul 30 2006, 19:01:16)
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [GCC 3.4.4 [FreeBSD] 20050518]
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] sys.executable  = /usr/local/bin/python2.4
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] sys.prefix      = /usr/local
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] sys.exec_prefix = /usr/local
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] sys.path        = /usr/local
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] sys.platform    = freebsd6
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [----- Environment Variables -----]
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tforce_response_1_0: 1
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.0.58 (FreeBSD) mod_ssl/2.0.58 OpenSSL/0.9.7g DAV/2 PHP/4.4.1 mod_perl/2.0.2 Perl/v5.8.7
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/confirm
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.0.58 (FreeBSD) mod_ssl/2.0.58 OpenSSL/0.9.7g DAV/2 PHP/4.4.1 mod_perl/2.0.2 Perl/v5.8.7 Server at secure.downtownhelpdesk.com Port 443</address>
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tREQUEST_METHOD: GET
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tPATH_INFO: /river_city_referrals/95ea391a71ec4c05acf43009aeb2dc8e2bd26528
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tQUERY_STRING:
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tHTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2)
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tHTTP_CONNECTION: Keep-Alive
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSERVER_NAME: secure.downtownhelpdesk.com
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tREMOTE_ADDR: 67.103.106.42
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tPATH_TRANSLATED: /usr/www/sites/1fast.us/river_city_referrals/95ea391a71ec4c05acf43009aeb2dc8e2bd26528
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSERVER_PORT: 443
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSERVER_ADDR: 192.168.254.34
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tDOCUMENT_ROOT: /usr/www/sites/1fast.us
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tPYTHONPATH: /usr/local/mailman
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/confirm
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tSERVER_ADMIN: webmaster at downtownhelpdesk.com
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tHTTP_HOST: secure.downtownhelpdesk.com
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tHTTPS: on
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tREQUEST_URI: /mailman/confirm/river_city_referrals/95ea391a71ec4c05acf43009aeb2dc8e2bd26528
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tHTTP_ACCEPT: */*
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tnokeepalive: 1
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tGATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tREMOTE_PORT: 2126
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tHTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tdowngrade_1_0: 1
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tssl_unclean_shutdown: 1
[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] \tHTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate


Any assisstance would be most appreciated!

From dorp at chello.nl  Mon Sep 25 21:39:23 2006
From: dorp at chello.nl (Peter van Dorp)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:39:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatically accept messages with implicit
	destination?
Message-ID: <754D5178-1856-4100-9DD1-0C58A3DBB262@chello.nl>

Dear list members,

All messages sent to my list are actually forwarded by means of a  
(single) mail address alias. This means that for each message, the  
To: address is not the list address; it is a mail alias that relays  
the mail to the list.

As a -- much unwanted -- result, each message is submitted to the  
list administrator with the following request:

=======================
As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
following mailing list posting:

     List:    [listname]
     From:    [any member]
     Subject: [anything]
     Reason:  Message has implicit destination
=======================

Is there a way to avoid this request and accept all messages with  
implicit destination automatically?

Best regards,
Peter van Dorp


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 25 22:00:49 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:00:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatically accept messages with
	implicitdestination?
In-Reply-To: <754D5178-1856-4100-9DD1-0C58A3DBB262@chello.nl>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092513004904845b4db2f5@msapiro>

Peter van Dorp wrote:
>
>All messages sent to my list are actually forwarded by means of a  
>(single) mail address alias. This means that for each message, the  
>To: address is not the list address; it is a mail alias that relays  
>the mail to the list.
>
<snip>
>
>Is there a way to avoid this request and accept all messages with  
>implicit destination automatically?


Go to the admin interface Privacy options...->Recipient filters and
either set require_explicit_destination to No or add the list address
alias to acceptable_aliases.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 25 22:09:43 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:09:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade issue
In-Reply-To: <006901c6e0b2$1dac7600$6e0116ac@X60>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092513094305155b4db30e@msapiro>

Help Desk wrote:
>
>We get the following string of errors during the upgrade phase, then a stop:
>
>
>Updating mailing list: river_city_referrals
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "bin/update", line 789, in ?
>    errors = main()
>  File "bin/update", line 679, in main
>    errors = errors + dolist(listname)
>  File "bin/update", line 192, in dolist
>    mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 130, in __init__
>    self.Load()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 629, in Load
>    dict, e = self.__load(file)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 602, in __load
>    dict = loadfunc(fp)
>AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'append'
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman/work/mailman-2.1.9.
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman.
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman.


It appears that the list river_city_referrals may have a corrupted
configuration file (lists/river_city_referrals/config.pck). The update
process may or may not have updated all the lists, but they will be
updated anyway as the lists are accessed. The software update was
finished at this point.

Assuming you get the same error when attempting to access the list
(after fixing the problem below, try copying or moving the config.pck
aside and replacing it with the config.pck.last

>In addition, when attempting to use the CGI interface, it does not run.  We get the following errors (in the httpd-error log -- we're running Apache 2.0.54)
>
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----]
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [----- Traceback ------]
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] Traceback (most recent call last):
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 82, in run_main
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     immediate=1)
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/StampedLogger.py", line 52, in __init__
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     Logger.__init__(self, category, nofail, immediate)
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 50, in __init__
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     self.__get_f()
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 68, in __get_f
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     1)
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/codecs.py", line 666, in open
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     file = __builtin__.open(filename, mode, buffering)
>[Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/usr/local/mailman/logs/error'


There is a permissions problem on your Mailman logs. Try running
"bin/check_perms -f" as root until it reports no errors.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 25 22:18:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:18:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman just stopped
In-Reply-To: <28040192.1159163366598.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092513180503121119a93d@msapiro>

Carconni wrote:

>First, thank you Mr. Sapiro for all the help you provide us.  I couldn't have gotten as far as I have with my mailmain program without you.


You're welcome.


>Out of desperation, I backed up the inbox (/private/var/mailman/qfiles/in) and dumped it and the lists just started working again.  I've started moving mail back little by little and everything seems to be okay now.


Strange. I wouldn't expect a problem in the 'in' queue to stop Mailman.
If you find a problem entry, please report the details.


>I'm still not sure what happened.  Aside from the logs I've already posted, there was nothing else to indicate what went wrong.  I will however look into rebuilding my mailman install if you believe that the installation should recoginize gb2312.


I think it should, but it is the Python installation, not Mailman that
should recognize gb2312 encoding. It is not necessary to fix this
unless you find that these messages are in fact the cause of your
problem, but I think they should have just been moved to qfiles/shunt
by Mailman and not be causing a further problem. You can look at the
entries in qfiles/shunt with bin/show_qfiles or bin/dumpdb, and if
they are unwanted, just remove them.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bsl04 at uark.edu  Mon Sep 25 22:52:54 2006
From: bsl04 at uark.edu (Brian Lewis)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:52:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] viewing archives
Message-ID: <20060925155254.df71fab5.bsl04@uark.edu>

I'm trying to view the archives of a list. I click on a link to
/pipermail/nameoflist. Instead of showing me archives, I get sent to
/mailman/listinfo.

check_perms and check_db have told me everything is OK. There are no
relevant error messages in apache logs.

Using 2.1.9. Thanks.


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 25 23:00:29 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:00:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] viewing archives
In-Reply-To: <20060925155254.df71fab5.bsl04@uark.edu>
Message-ID: <PC176020060925140029010939e9cc0a@msapiro>

Brian Lewis wrote:

>I'm trying to view the archives of a list. I click on a link to
>/pipermail/nameoflist. Instead of showing me archives, I get sent to
>/mailman/listinfo.


Something is wrong with your web server configuration. See
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node10.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mark at downtownhelpdesk.com  Mon Sep 25 23:12:34 2006
From: mark at downtownhelpdesk.com (Mark Nernberg)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:12:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade issue
Message-ID: <C13DBE82.10246%mark@downtownhelpdesk.com>


On Sep 25, 2006, at 4:09 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Help Desk wrote:
>>
>> We get the following string of errors during the upgrade phase,
>> then a stop:
>>
>>
>> Updating mailing list: river_city_referrals
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "bin/update", line 789, in ?
>>    errors = main()
>>  File "bin/update", line 679, in main
>>    errors = errors + dolist(listname)
>>  File "bin/update", line 192, in dolist
>>    mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
>>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 130, in __init__
>>    self.Load()
>>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 629, in Load
>>    dict, e = self.__load(file)
>>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 602, in __load
>>    dict = loadfunc(fp)
>> AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'append'
>> *** Error code 1
>>
>> Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman/work/mailman-2.1.9.
>> *** Error code 1
>>
>> Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman.
>> *** Error code 1
>>
>> Stop in /usr/ports/mail/mailman.
>
>
> It appears that the list river_city_referrals may have a corrupted
> configuration file (lists/river_city_referrals/config.pck). The update
> process may or may not have updated all the lists, but they will be
> updated anyway as the lists are accessed. The software update was
> finished at this point.
>
> Assuming you get the same error when attempting to access the list
> (after fixing the problem below, try copying or moving the config.pck
> aside and replacing it with the config.pck.last

I hate to say it, but I already tried that.

>
>> In addition, when attempting to use the CGI interface, it does not
>> run.  We get the following errors (in the httpd-error log -- we're
>> running Apache 2.0.54)
>>
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [-----
>> Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----]
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] [-----
>> Traceback ------]
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/
>> usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 82, in run_main
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]
>> immediate=1)
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/
>> usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/StampedLogger.py", line 52, in
>> __init__
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]
>> Logger.__init__(self, category, nofail, immediate)
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/
>> usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 50, in __init__
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]
>> self.__get_f()
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/
>> usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 68, in __get_f
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     1)
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]   File "/
>> usr/local/lib/python2.4/codecs.py", line 666, in open
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42]     file
>> = __builtin__.open(filename, mode, buffering)
>> [Mon Sep 25 10:46:49 2006] [error] [client 67.103.106.42] IOError:
>> [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/usr/local/mailman/logs/error'
>
>
> There is a permissions problem on your Mailman logs. Try running
> "bin/check_perms -f" as root until it reports no errors.
>

Done.  That part worked.


> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>
>





From msapiro at value.net  Mon Sep 25 23:23:21 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:23:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade issue
In-Reply-To: <C13DBE82.10246%mark@downtownhelpdesk.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609251423210546064638b7@msapiro>

Mark Nernberg wrote:
>
>On Sep 25, 2006, at 4:09 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Assuming you get the same error when attempting to access the list
>> (after fixing the problem below, try copying or moving the config.pck
>> aside and replacing it with the config.pck.last
>
>I hate to say it, but I already tried that.


Do you have more than one list? Does this affect all lists or just the
one?

Do you have a recent backup of the config.pck? If so try that. If not,
and this problen just affects one list and is not systemic, I'm afraid
you'll have to use bin/dumpdb to try to salvage as much information as
possible from the config.pck and use it to create a new list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 23:46:37 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:46:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] viewing archives
In-Reply-To: <20060925155254.df71fab5.bsl04@uark.edu>
References: <20060925155254.df71fab5.bsl04@uark.edu>
Message-ID: <1159220797.25184.14.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2006-09-25 at 15:52 -0500, Brian Lewis wrote:
> I'm trying to view the archives of a list. I click on a link to
> /pipermail/nameoflist. Instead of showing me archives, I get sent to
> /mailman/listinfo.
> 
> check_perms and check_db have told me everything is OK. There are no
> relevant error messages in apache logs.

One thing to check is to make sure the archives are public and not
private.

-Jim P.



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Mon Sep 25 23:55:18 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:55:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing an archive in such a way as to
 populatethe associated newsgroup.
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609240819580718320167c8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C13D9E56.EC6F%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 9/24/06 8:19 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <msapiro at value.net> wrote:

> Assuming the experiment above works, you could probably create a simple
> script in Python (or perl or even a shell script) that would extract
> the messages one by one from the mailbox and pipe them to
> 
> bin/inject --listname=<listname> --queue=news
> 
> (bin/inject reads stdin if no filename arg is given).

formail
can probably be used for this job.  The man page is a must, and caution is
advised (formail will do what it's told, as will the commands it is told to
send the output to--it can happen that it's told the wrong thing for an
input mbox file with lots of messages).

The formail program typically rides in with the procmail package in
package-based distributions.

  --John




From msapiro at value.net  Tue Sep 26 00:01:41 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:01:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609250755n4f7bdc1aqefdd34e38fec315f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200609251501410187e3a27544@msapiro>

Patrick Bogen wrote:
>
>Might it be worthwhile to add a cautionary note to unshunt's help
>files, to the effect that it should ONLY be used on qfiles/shunt, and
>that its use on other queues will probably result in lost messages?
>
>Alternatively, maybe have it detect thigns that weren't actually
>shunted (i.e., messages that don't have the original queue attribute
>you mentioned), and refuse to operate on these without being, say,
>--forced ?


These are both excellent suggestions.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From duncan at gordon.co.za  Tue Sep 26 08:21:59 2006
From: duncan at gordon.co.za (Duncan Gordon)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:21:59 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re confirming subscriptions
Message-ID: <66454efc0609252321s7e91e175va2b8502eac23bc21@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings Everyone.

I'm new to the list so here goes.
I have a list of about 4000 email address that i have accumulated here
at work and added them to my weekly announcement list. I would like to
send out an email asking them to reconfirm their subscription.

Is this possible? I know i can use the mass delete and the mass invite
but i would rather send out a mail asking them to reconfirm..

Any ideas?

My mailman is on a shared hosting platform so i don't have access to
all the important config files.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks
DG


-- 



"A mouse is an elephant built by the Japanese."


From speedyfs at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 12:09:10 2006
From: speedyfs at gmail.com (Franky St. Pierre)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:09:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail Man Help
In-Reply-To: <3CC92FCB-E3EF-4BA9-B61F-717F44EF230E@gmail.com>
References: <3CC92FCB-E3EF-4BA9-B61F-717F44EF230E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ad42dc900609260309o3cb74596r9b777fabbc24b8a6@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

My name is Franky St. Pierre and I am trying to set up Mailman for a
new high school on a linux server. I am getting these errors when I
try bin/check_perms -f (-bash: bin/check_perms: @PYTHON@: bad
interpreter: No such file or directory) We are running Ubuntu 6.06
and python 2.4 is that because the version of python is too new? At
the end of the installation it says:
File "bin/update", line 46, in ?
    import paths
  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/paths.py", line 56, in ?
    import japanese
ImportError: No module named japanese
make: *** [update] Error 1

what does this mean. Is there a way i can fix this?

Thanks,
Franky


From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 14:51:11 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:51:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks again for all your help. I checked in last night and mailman was hung
again, but this time I saw that the OutgoingRunner process was missing, and
there are errors in the error log:

Sep 23 08:10:17 2006 (2180) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 1592, sig: None, sts: 1, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1)
[restarting]
Sep 23 08:10:18 2006 (1602) OutgoingRunner qrunner started.
Sep 23 08:11:34 2006 (2435) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 1598, sig: None, sts: 1, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1)
[restarting]
Sep 23 08:11:34 2006 (2435) Qrunner OutgoingRunner reached maximum restart
limit
 of 10, not restarting.

Will add a check to kick mailman if OutgoingRunner is not running, although
I'd like to understand why OutgoingRunner is dying.

Another question:  is there any parallelism of processing files in the out
queue or are they done sequentially? We have one very big list with 751
members that takes quite a while to get through any one message, and it
seems like when I had a couple of messages in qfiles/out for this list, that
messages for my little test list weren't going through.


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 16:10:08 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:10:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail Man Help
In-Reply-To: <ad42dc900609260309o3cb74596r9b777fabbc24b8a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3CC92FCB-E3EF-4BA9-B61F-717F44EF230E@gmail.com>
	<ad42dc900609260309o3cb74596r9b777fabbc24b8a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609260710s6481a497g6b782a6690feb5ae@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/26/06, Franky St. Pierre <speedyfs at gmail.com> wrote:
> interpreter: No such file or directory) We are running Ubuntu 6.06
> and python 2.4 is that because the version of python is too new? At
> the end of the installation it says:

I'm not sure about the japanese issue. However, can you please send us
the parameters you ran ./configure with initially?

(Also, Ubuntu should have a fairly recent version of Mailman in its
repositories. Are you using that, or did you download the source?)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 16:11:06 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:11:06 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re confirming subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <66454efc0609252321s7e91e175va2b8502eac23bc21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <66454efc0609252321s7e91e175va2b8502eac23bc21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609260711j731d76f0gbe2104db5d68caf8@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/26/06, Duncan Gordon <duncan at gordon.co.za> wrote:
> Is this possible? I know i can use the mass delete and the mass invite
> but i would rather send out a mail asking them to reconfirm..
This is the only way I know of that doesn't require code changes, and...

> My mailman is on a shared hosting platform so i don't have access to
> all the important config files.
Since you can't modify the code, the answer, AFAIK, is Absolutely Not.


-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 16:36:37 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:36:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re confirming subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <66454efc0609260733g16e8440bqd53c3c7c514e3ecc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <66454efc0609252321s7e91e175va2b8502eac23bc21@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609260711j731d76f0gbe2104db5d68caf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<66454efc0609260733g16e8440bqd53c3c7c514e3ecc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609260736x16bdcd5fwae071fe043ae0031@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/26/06, Duncan Gordon <duncan at gordon.co.za> wrote:
> I can however ask my service provider to change the code for me...
>
> Any suggestions?

There are probably several ways to do it. Some that come to mind are:

(1) Adding a new state value to subscriptions for 'unconfirmed,' and
then adding the appropriate infrastructure (e.g., to the web interface
and/or the email command processor) for uses to confirm. (This is
probably fairly difficult/complex)

(2) Setting all users to delivery disabled, and sending out an email
informing them that they need to 'reconfirm' by reenabling delivery
(with instructions) (This may not be as 'neat' as you want, but
doesn't actually require code changes, just the use of command-line
utilities)

P.s., please make sure to reply on-list, so that other, more
knowledgable people, can weigh in, as well.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Sep 26 20:12:23 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:12:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
	<a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240501c13f1d9c84d7@[10.0.1.4]>

At 8:51 AM -0400 9/26/06, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:

>  Another question:  is there any parallelism of processing files in the out
>  queue or are they done sequentially?

By default, it's single-threaded -- but not really "sequential".  It 
has more to do with how the directory entries are written, and not 
what you or I would think of as "sequential".

There are ways to get more than one Outgoing queue runner working, 
but that's a very non-standard configuration, and takes more work to 
maintain.  I would like to see Mailman move towards a hashed queue 
mechanism (like postfix), so that it would be a lot easier to have 
multiple Outgoing queue runners working at the same time.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From barry at python.org  Tue Sep 26 20:45:44 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:45:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c13f1d9c84d7@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
	<a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c13f1d9c84d7@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <F1D17064-38BF-4728-B0DF-B892A213C151@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sep 26, 2006, at 2:12 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:

> At 8:51 AM -0400 9/26/06, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:
>
>>  Another question:  is there any parallelism of processing files  
>> in the out
>>  queue or are they done sequentially?
>
> By default, it's single-threaded -- but not really "sequential".  It
> has more to do with how the directory entries are written, and not
> what you or I would think of as "sequential".
>
> There are ways to get more than one Outgoing queue runner working,
> but that's a very non-standard configuration, and takes more work to
> maintain.  I would like to see Mailman move towards a hashed queue
> mechanism (like postfix), so that it would be a lot easier to have
> multiple Outgoing queue runners working at the same time.

Actually, Mailman does implement a hashed queue of sorts for its  
queue runners.  Every queue file is assigned a hash and a timestamp,  
encoded in the file name.  The timestamp is so that qrunners can  
handle the files in FIFO order.  The hash creates a "hash space" for  
when multiple qrunners are used per queue.  In that case, each  
qrunner is responsible for a slice of the hash space, so that they  
can run concurrently without having to deal with expensive and tricky  
locks.

Multiple qrunners are a supported configuration, although I believe  
their use is rare.  In fact, qrunners can contend for list locks  
which can reduce their concurrency, but the OutgoingRunner is one  
place where write access to the list data isn't necessary and care  
was taken so that multiple OutgoingRunners could maximize their  
concurrency.

(fyi: there is an end-case bug in the hash space algorithm in Mailman  
pre-2.1.9.  I don't think anyone's ever hit it, but Mark found it  
through visual inspection of the code.  Fixed in 2.1.9.)

Cheers,
- -Barry

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From brandon at ucar.edu  Tue Sep 26 22:29:20 2006
From: brandon at ucar.edu (Brandon Slaten)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:29:20 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just want to verify ...
Message-ID: <45198DA0.3040908@ucar.edu>

Hopefully this is just a quick one.  Having looked through all the 
documentation that I can find, as well as the FAQ's.  It is my 
understanding that Mailman needs to be installed on the same host that 
is running the mail server.  Is this correct? am I missing something 
(certainly possible)?  I could not find anything that plainly said so.

Brandon Slaten
UCAR/NCAR



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 27 02:57:13 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:57:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just want to verify ...
In-Reply-To: <45198DA0.3040908@ucar.edu>
References: <45198DA0.3040908@ucar.edu>
Message-ID: <p06240501c13f7cbdd06f@[10.0.1.4]>

At 2:29 PM -0600 9/26/06, Brandon Slaten wrote:

>                                                       It is my
>  understanding that Mailman needs to be installed on the same host that
>  is running the mail server.  Is this correct?

It is a typical configuration, but not a hard requirement.  Just set 
your SMTPHOST to a different name.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 27 03:07:09 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:07:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <F1D17064-38BF-4728-B0DF-B892A213C151@python.org>
References: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
	<a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c13f1d9c84d7@[10.0.1.4]>
	<F1D17064-38BF-4728-B0DF-B892A213C151@python.org>
Message-ID: <p06240502c13f7ceedbd3@[10.0.1.4]>

At 2:45 PM -0400 9/26/06, Barry Warsaw wrote:

>  Actually, Mailman does implement a hashed queue of sorts for its
>  queue runners.  Every queue file is assigned a hash and a timestamp,
>  encoded in the file name.  The timestamp is so that qrunners can
>  handle the files in FIFO order.  The hash creates a "hash space" for
>  when multiple qrunners are used per queue.  In that case, each
>  qrunner is responsible for a slice of the hash space, so that they
>  can run concurrently without having to deal with expensive and
>  tricky locks.

But you're still using a single directory as an on-disk queue, and 
that single directory has to be completely locked, operated on, and 
then unlocked every single time you want to create a new file, delete 
an old file, or rename a file.

These synchronous meta-data operations are what *kill* the 
performance of programs like postfix and sendmail in large sites, 
where the cost differential can be thousands, tens of thousands, 
hundreds of thousands, or even millions of times when compared to a 
true hashed directory scheme.


Do an "ls" on a directory with millions of files on an SGI box 
running Irix and XFS (which incorporates it's own hashed directory 
scheme internally).  Then do the same command on virtually any other 
box on virtually any other filesystem.  Compare the difference in 
performance.


There's a reason why postfix ships out-of-the-box with directory 
hashing turned on.

Even just two levels of hashed directories with hexadecimal 
subdirectory names will mean that you could have over a hundred queue 
runners all going at once, with very little likelihood of them 
stepping on each others toes.  If you locked down each queue runner 
to its own subdirectory, you could have 256 of them.  Using two 
characters of base-32 hashing at each level, you could get 1024 queue 
runners with just one level of hashing.

I've done lots of MTA tuning in my time, and directory hashing has to 
be the single biggest performance win that I have ever encountered.

>  Multiple qrunners are a supported configuration, although I
>  believe their use is rare.  In fact, qrunners can contend
>  for list locks which can reduce their concurrency, but the
>  OutgoingRunner is one place where write access to the list
>  data isn't necessary and care was taken so that multiple
>  OutgoingRunners could maximize their concurrency.

It's good that we allow an application level of concurrency within 
the Outgoing queue runners, and that we can avoid file locking.  But 
we're not getting any real concurrency within the filesystem until we 
can physically break the queue down into multiple chunks and operate 
on each chunk in a manner that is completely and totally independant 
of all the other chunks.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From duncan at gordon.co.za  Wed Sep 27 08:34:37 2006
From: duncan at gordon.co.za (Duncan Gordon)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:34:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re confirming subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609260736x16bdcd5fwae071fe043ae0031@mail.gmail.com>
References: <66454efc0609252321s7e91e175va2b8502eac23bc21@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609260711j731d76f0gbe2104db5d68caf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<66454efc0609260733g16e8440bqd53c3c7c514e3ecc@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609260736x16bdcd5fwae071fe043ae0031@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66454efc0609262334n4011ca60k36d508adee857c28@mail.gmail.com>

I think ill use the original idea of mass delete mass subscribe.

I just need to make sure that the subscribtion email is nice and neat..

Thanks
DG

On 9/26/06, Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/26/06, Duncan Gordon <duncan at gordon.co.za> wrote:
> > I can however ask my service provider to change the code for me...
> >
> > Any suggestions?
>
> There are probably several ways to do it. Some that come to mind are:
>
> (1) Adding a new state value to subscriptions for 'unconfirmed,' and
> then adding the appropriate infrastructure (e.g., to the web interface
> and/or the email command processor) for uses to confirm. (This is
> probably fairly difficult/complex)
>
> (2) Setting all users to delivery disabled, and sending out an email
> informing them that they need to 'reconfirm' by reenabling delivery
> (with instructions) (This may not be as 'neat' as you want, but
> doesn't actually require code changes, just the use of command-line
> utilities)
>
> P.s., please make sure to reply on-list, so that other, more
> knowledgable people, can weigh in, as well.
>
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
>



-- 
Isn't it time YOU had your own personalised domain and email address???

Please visit
http://www.cheaphost.co.za

Current Special R100pm for 150mb and 10 email addresses. Including Photo
Gallery Setup and Installation. See www.launch.co.za as an example.

Cell: 083 258-4000
Fax:  086 628 3917


"A mouse is an elephant built by the Japanese."


From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 27 09:31:54 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:31:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Daily admin post -- can it be weekly? (for low
	traffic lists)
Message-ID: <451A28EA.4060102@hivemind.net>

A question that's come up from list administrators is the issue of the daily
administrative mail they get. In situations where the list is really low
volume (yet somehow the listname finds itself in a spam database) the list
owner is spending X minutes a day discarding these mails while the list
itself may only get a legitimate mail once a week (or even less).

I've noted that this is just the way things are intended with options being:

 [ ] get administrative mail for every request
 [ ] get a once a day mailing
 [ ] 'forget' administrative requests older than X days

However this has been deemed insufficient as an answer. Is it possible to
make some lists send out admin requests only one a week as opposed to daily?

(some context)
* some list admins just ignore the daily mailing no matter what
* others [from majordomo background] don't necessarily use all the available
  options, which means the same spammer keeps sending to the list
* some flat out refuse to have to do constant admin work on a low volume
  list
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

One day a mother comes home from work and asks her son, "What did you do
today?" The son replied, "I taught our dog how to play the piano." The
mother, incredulous, asked, "Our dog can play the piano?", to which the son
laughed and replied, "Of course not mom. I said that I taught him; I didn't
say that he learned how."


From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 27 10:03:27 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:03:27 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] obscuring list addresses on the listinfo page
Message-ID: <451A304F.1060408@hivemind.net>

Another question (and this may be dumb, advance apologies) but how can one
obscure the list addresses on the

 http://lists.domain.net/mailman/listinfo/listname

page?

+------------------------------------------------------------
| Using listname
| To post a message to all the list members, send email to
| listname at domain.net.
|
| You can subscribe to the list, or change your existing
| subscription, in the sections below.
+------------------------------------------------------------

I see in editing the general HTML pages there is a code snippet:

| To post a message to all the list members, send email to
| <A HREF="mailto:<MM-Posting-Addr>"><MM-Posting-Addr></A>.

1. How would one obscure <MM-Posting-Addr> ?
2. How could you do it for 300+ lists

thanks
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea." - Medgar Evers


From Jeremy at elite4god.com  Mon Sep 25 12:41:37 2006
From: Jeremy at elite4god.com (Jeremy Leonard)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 06:41:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MySQL or other backends
Message-ID: <4517B261.6090103@elite4god.com>

Does Mailman support using MySQL, LDAP or another SQL server for a backend?


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 27 16:33:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:33:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Daily admin post -- can it be weekly? (for
	lowtraffic lists)
In-Reply-To: <451A28EA.4060102@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092707333103757658f556@msapiro>

Bretton Vine worte:

>Is it possible to
>make some lists send out admin requests only one a week as opposed to daily?


The notices are sent by cron/checkdbs which is run via a crontab for
the mailman user. You can easily change the frequency of this for all
lists just by altering the crontab.

To do it for some lists only, you would need to modify the
cron/checkdbs script.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 27 16:48:28 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:48:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] obscuring list addresses on the listinfo page
In-Reply-To: <451A304F.1060408@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092707482802507658f4d6@msapiro>



----- Original Message ---------------

Subject: [Mailman-Users] obscuring list addresses on the listinfo page
   From: Bretton Vine <bretton at hivemind.net>
   Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:03:27 +0200
     To: mailman-users at python.org

>Another question (and this may be dumb, advance apologies) but how can one
>obscure the list addresses on the
>
> http://lists.domain.net/mailman/listinfo/listname
>
>page?
>
>+------------------------------------------------------------
>| Using listname
>| To post a message to all the list members, send email to
>| listname at domain.net.
>|
>| You can subscribe to the list, or change your existing
>| subscription, in the sections below.
>+------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I see in editing the general HTML pages there is a code snippet:
>
>| To post a message to all the list members, send email to
>| <A HREF="mailto:<MM-Posting-Addr>"><MM-Posting-Addr></A>.
>
>1. How would one obscure <MM-Posting-Addr> ?
>2. How could you do it for 300+ lists


I assume that by 'obscure', you mean replace 'list at example.com' with
something like 'the address "list" in the example dot com domain".

1. You can use the tags <MM-List-Name> for the case preserved list
name, <MM-Email-User> for the lower-case list name, and <MM-Host> for
the domain.

2. You can make a sitewide listinfo template - see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.048.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 16:55:10 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:55:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail Man Help
In-Reply-To: <ad42dc900609270451m2784ae40n74c8d24fb33fab0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3CC92FCB-E3EF-4BA9-B61F-717F44EF230E@gmail.com>
	<ad42dc900609260309o3cb74596r9b777fabbc24b8a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<6fbe3da00609260710s6481a497g6b782a6690feb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<ad42dc900609270451m2784ae40n74c8d24fb33fab0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609270755g305db1d9of44381a2b3d07724@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, Franky St. Pierre <speedyfs at gmail.com> wrote:
> I used no arguments for the installation. I am not sure what went wrong...

This might be your problem. I haven't installed from source,
personally, but as I recall, you have to give configure several
parameters, such as where files go, etc.

P.S., please keep all replies on-list

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 27 16:57:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:57:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just want to verify ...
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c13f7cbdd06f@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092707571100467658f3f9@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 2:29 PM -0600 9/26/06, Brandon Slaten wrote:
>
>>                                                       It is my
>>  understanding that Mailman needs to be installed on the same host that
>>  is running the mail server.  Is this correct?
>
>It is a typical configuration, but not a hard requirement.  Just set 
>your SMTPHOST to a different name.


This works fine for outgoing mail. Incoming mail is trickier. You have
to use something like fetchmail or some other process to get the mail
from the incoming MTA to mailman (Maybe NFS can be used, but I don't
offhand know if anyone has done this). Search the archives of this
ilst
(<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.018.htp>)
for discussions of this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:01:18 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:01:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MySQL or other backends
In-Reply-To: <4517B261.6090103@elite4god.com>
References: <4517B261.6090103@elite4god.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609270801g76d27c56rd7524beefe6568c1@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/25/06, Jeremy Leonard <Jeremy at elite4god.com> wrote:
> Does Mailman support using MySQL, LDAP or another SQL server for a backend?

I believe there's a third-party patch/addon to use MySQL for storing
membership information, although I think list configurations (and
almost certainly archives) are still stored on the filesystem.

Try searching for 'mailman mysql member adapter'.

It would probably be fairly easy to modify this to use a different SQL
server. Theoretically, LDAP, as well, although that would likely be a
more extensive rewrite.

If you're interested in storing *all* data on a MySQL server, you're
out of luck as far as I know.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:03:17 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:03:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Daily admin post -- can it be weekly? (for low
	traffic lists)
In-Reply-To: <451A28EA.4060102@hivemind.net>
References: <451A28EA.4060102@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609270803mb180fb5t18d1a133cc974889@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, Bretton Vine <bretton at hivemind.net> wrote:
> A question that's come up from list administrators is the issue of the daily
> administrative mail they get. In situations where the list is really low
> volume (yet somehow the listname finds itself in a spam database) the list
> owner is spending X minutes a day discarding these mails while the list
> itself may only get a legitimate mail once a week (or even less).

It might be worth mentioning that, as the system administrator, some
low-impact spam filtering might be in order, to stop these messages
from even reaching Mailman. A conservatively configured bayesian
filter, for example, which you feed the spam messages to, should be
able to reduce the amount of spam you receive without generating false
positives.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From jstubbs456 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:04:43 2006
From: jstubbs456 at gmail.com (Stubbs Jeff)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:04:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] OS X & Mailman & Python
Message-ID: <44D71836-7288-4E65-BE16-BC40BD785DCF@gmail.com>

Greetings List,

Got a question. I picked up another Mac, so I'm going to rebuild my  
list server from scratch, using Postfix 2.3.3 and Mailman 2.1.9. The  
default python install supplied by Apple is version 2.3.5. Last week  
or so , I noticed the version 2.4.3 was available from the Python  
website in an OS X installer. This morning, I noticed that the 2.5  
version was available. (whew, the developers must be sucking in the  
coffee).

All things being equal, would Mailman benefit from using the 2.5  
version as opposed to Apple's 2.3.5?

The old server seemed to run fine, but I wouldn't mind upgrading  
python, if it wasn't going to be problematic.

Thanks,

Jeff

----------
The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears it is true.
      -- J. Robert Oppenheimer





From msapiro at value.net  Wed Sep 27 17:12:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:12:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092708120503597658f52c@msapiro>

Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:

>I checked in last night and mailman was hung
>again, but this time I saw that the OutgoingRunner process was missing, and
>there are errors in the error log:


The 'error' log or the 'qrunner' log?


>Sep 23 08:10:17 2006 (2180) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
>(pid: 1592, sig: None, sts: 1, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1)
>[restarting]
>Sep 23 08:10:18 2006 (1602) OutgoingRunner qrunner started.
>Sep 23 08:11:34 2006 (2435) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
>(pid: 1598, sig: None, sts: 1, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1)
>[restarting]
>Sep 23 08:11:34 2006 (2435) Qrunner OutgoingRunner reached maximum restart
>limit
> of 10, not restarting.


Are there any other messages (in Mailman's error log or elsewhere) from
these times indicating why OutgoingRunner exited with status 1?


>Will add a check to kick mailman if OutgoingRunner is not running, although
>I'd like to understand why OutgoingRunner is dying.


So would I. Please check other logs - system logs too.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Wed Sep 27 17:50:47 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:50:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail Man Help
In-Reply-To: Mail from '"Patrick Bogen" <pdbogen@gmail.com>'
	dated: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:10:08 -0500
Message-ID: <200609271550.k8RFolQj007469@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

Patrick Bogen replied to some posting:

>(Also, Ubuntu should have a fairly recent version of Mailman in its
>repositories. Are you using that, or did you download the source?)

I have installed mailman_2.1.5-9ubuntu4.1 for testing. I installed via

     apt-get install mailman

As I was not sure how this differed from the mailman-2.1.8 I had
installed from the CVS repositories on a test Solaris box, I copied the
installed files from both boxes to a common place and did a
comparison.  (In a previous posting about a week ago I had mistakenly
said that Ubuntu did not supply the source.  I was wrong, as I was
looking for .c and not .py files.)

I compared the source, and there are 205 files that are in both. Of
these 205 files, 122 compare and 83 have differences.  I do not know
the source(s) of these differences.  Is there 2.1.8 code that has not
been ported to the Ubuntu 2.1.5-9?  Is there code that Ubuntu (or its
"source" Debian) has written that has not been sent to Free Software
Foundation?  Note that neither has the latest security patch installed.

I found source in one but not the other:

     In Ubuntu/Debian but not in 2.1.8:

          mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
          mailman/bin/qmail-to-mailman.py
          mailman/mail/wrapper
          mailman/Mailman/Cgi/savannah
          mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamAssassin.py
          mailman/Mailman/Handlers/spamd.py

     In 2.1.8 but not in Ubuntu/Debian:

          mailman/bin/reset_pw.py
          mailman/pythonlib/
          mailman/tests/

As a result, I know that I have the 2.1.5 base, but I have no idea what
I have installed on Ubuntu past that base.  The Ubuntu/Debian change
log cannot be compared to the 2.1.8 CVS change log, as the U/D changes
have their own tracking numbers, and the short descriptions of the
changes do not compare.
The Ubuntu copyright file has this text:

     This package was debianized by Johnie Ingram (johnie at debian.org)
     on Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:34:13 -0400.

     It was downloaded from:
             http://www.list.org/

     Package was maintained by Gergely Madarasz <gorgo at caesar.elte.hu>
     Package now maintained by Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen at debian.org>

I do not know what was needed to "debianize" the code; I would have
assumed that the code from the FSF would run on any Linux without
modification.  If any mods were needed, the FSF developers would
be told and integrate any needed changes into their source tree.
I could envision a few changes, maybe to install mailman into different
directories to match the Debian standards, but 83 modules that are
different seems to be too many.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From barry at python.org  Wed Sep 27 17:54:43 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:54:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] OS X & Mailman & Python
In-Reply-To: <44D71836-7288-4E65-BE16-BC40BD785DCF@gmail.com>
References: <44D71836-7288-4E65-BE16-BC40BD785DCF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB1452CD-4978-42EE-AEBB-938A55DD123D@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm including mailman-developers on this message, because I want to  
discuss the issue of which Python versions to support.

On Sep 27, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Stubbs Jeff wrote:

> Got a question. I picked up another Mac, so I'm going to rebuild my
> list server from scratch, using Postfix 2.3.3 and Mailman 2.1.9. The
> default python install supplied by Apple is version 2.3.5. Last week
> or so , I noticed the version 2.4.3 was available from the Python
> website in an OS X installer. This morning, I noticed that the 2.5
> version was available. (whew, the developers must be sucking in the
> coffee).
>
> All things being equal, would Mailman benefit from using the 2.5
> version as opposed to Apple's 2.3.5?
>
> The old server seemed to run fine, but I wouldn't mind upgrading
> python, if it wasn't going to be problematic.

My recommendation would be to run at least Python 2.4.  Mailman 2.1.9  
should run on Python 2.5, but earlier versions of Mailman won't.   
While we still claim to be able to run Mailman 2.1 on versions of  
Python back to 2.1, I believe we broke that claim in Mailman 2.1.9.   
Does anybody care?

I would dearly love to drop support for Python 2.1 and Python 2.2  
even in the Mailman 2.1 series.  As I'm developing on OSX myself  
these days, I can't even build these earlier versions of Python and  
they haven't been supported by the PSF for years.  In fact, Python  
2.3 is no longer supported and I would even love to drop support for  
Python 2.3 in Mailman 2.1.x, although I know we can't.

Then there is the question of what versions we support for Mailman  
2.2, which is currently under development.  Previously we've said  
we'll support Python 2.3 but I think we should revisit that decision.

In summary my preferences would be:

Mailman 2.1.x supported on Python 2.3, 2.4, and 2.5.  Drop support  
for Python 2.1 and 2.2.  We've done this accidentally in Mailman  
2.1.9, so let's make it official.

Mailman 2.2 supported on Python 2.4 and 2.5.

- -Barry

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From barry at python.org  Wed Sep 27 17:56:30 2006
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:56:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <p06240502c13f7ceedbd3@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
	<a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c13f1d9c84d7@[10.0.1.4]>
	<F1D17064-38BF-4728-B0DF-B892A213C151@python.org>
	<p06240502c13f7ceedbd3@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <67B052EE-6674-4CDD-A5F9-78831FD1CC97@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sep 26, 2006, at 9:07 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:

> But you're still using a single directory as an on-disk queue, and  
> that single directory has to be completely locked, operated on, and  
> then unlocked every single time you want to create a new file,  
> delete an old file, or rename a file.

You've made this point before and each time you do, I remember that  
it's a good one. :)  Brad, would you mind adding this to the Mailman  
2.2 wiki page?  I think it's a worthy feature to add.

- -Barry

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From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Sep 27 18:46:40 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:46:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Daily admin post -- can it be weekly? (for low
 traffic lists)
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00609270803mb180fb5t18d1a133cc974889@mail.gmail.com>
References: <451A28EA.4060102@hivemind.net>
	<6fbe3da00609270803mb180fb5t18d1a133cc974889@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <451AAAF0.5000702@hivemind.net>

Patrick Bogen said the following on 2006/09/27 05:03 PM:
> It might be worth mentioning that, as the system administrator, some
> low-impact spam filtering might be in order, to stop these messages
> from even reaching Mailman.

Exim blacklists (regularly updated) along with spamassassin and ACLs and
RBLs are already in place. Yet spam still gets through. Go figure :-)


-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I
put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small." - Neil Armstrong


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 18:56:33 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:56:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail Man Help
In-Reply-To: <200609271550.k8RFolQj007469@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <pdbogen@gmail.com>
	<200609271550.k8RFolQj007469@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609270956p23c36bf8t55a33bff343155f2@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, Barry Finkel <b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov> wrote:
> the source(s) of these differences.  Is there 2.1.8 code that has not
> been ported to the Ubuntu 2.1.5-9?
I don't know. This is up to the Ubuntu folk. *usually* the -9 means
there have been 9 security patches to that version. How up to date
this is, exactly, is another question.

> Is there code that Ubuntu (or its
> "source" Debian) has written that has not been sent to Free Software
> Foundation?  Note that neither has the latest security patch installed.
Usually the only changes Debian makes in the case where the upstream
developer is active and cooperating (I don't know about Ubuntu) are
changes necessary to make Mailman fit into their file structure. Which
is to say, nothing you really need to care about if you elect to use
the official mailman sources. So, I would normally assume the answer
to this is "no".


> I do not know what was needed to "debianize" the code; I would have
> assumed that the code from the FSF would run on any Linux without
> modification.  If any mods were needed, the FSF developers would
Changes to debian packages, as mentioned above, are *usually* bug
fixes (in the case where upstream has essentially abandoned the
package) or changes to allow the package to comply with Debian's file
structure guide, whatever it's called.

> I could envision a few changes, maybe to install mailman into different
> directories to match the Debian standards, but 83 modules that are
> different seems to be too many.
You might be surprised at the number of places that reference files
directly, that need to be changed. Also, it *is* quite possible that
2.1.5-9 is out of date compared to 2.1.8, since likely only
bug/security fixes were applied, and not new features.

All told, you're probably better off using the official sources, if
you don't mind the (slight?) inconvenience. FWIW, if you're going to
do this, store the './configure <foo>' string you use the first time,
so you don't have to re-figure it each time you upgrade.



-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 27 19:29:18 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:29:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just want to verify ...
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006092707571100467658f3f9@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006092707571100467658f3f9@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240501c14064a92b5a@[10.0.1.4]>

At 7:57 AM -0700 9/27/06, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  This works fine for outgoing mail. Incoming mail is trickier. You have
>  to use something like fetchmail or some other process to get the mail
>  from the incoming MTA to mailman (Maybe NFS can be used, but I don't
>  offhand know if anyone has done this).

Handling incoming mail from alternative MTAs should just be a 
relatively simple matter of modifying the mail routing on the 
external MTAs in order to properly direct mail addressed to the list 
to the machine where Mailman is installed.  There will need to be a 
sync process every time you set up a new mailing list, because the 
procedures that Mailman uses internally to create new aliases, etc... 
are not going to do anything for the external MTAs.

This sync process could be manual, or you could modify the scripts 
which generate these changes, so that the sync process is automated.


Alternatively, you could use a fetchmail or NFS mailbox solution, 
although I believe that handling this through mail routing changes 
(as described above) is going to be a cleaner overall solution.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 27 19:33:46 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:33:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail Man Help
In-Reply-To: <200609271550.k8RFolQj007469@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200609271550.k8RFolQj007469@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <p06240502c14065b26980@[10.0.1.4]>

At 10:50 AM -0500 9/27/06, Barry Finkel wrote:

>                                     Is there 2.1.8 code that has not
>  been ported to the Ubuntu 2.1.5-9?

Dunno.  You need to ask the people who created the binary package you're using.

>                                    Is there code that Ubuntu (or its
>"source" Debian) has written that has not been sent to Free Software
>Foundation?

Dunno.  Again, you need to ask them.

>  I do not know what was needed to "debianize" the code;

Neither do we.

>                                                          I would have
>  assumed that the code from the FSF would run on any Linux without
>  modification.

Should do, yes.  But maybe they want files put in different places 
than we do, or perhaps there are some other internal changes we don't 
know about.

>                 If any mods were needed, the FSF developers would
>  be told and integrate any needed changes into their source tree.

We would certainly take a look at any of their suggested changes and 
see what makes sense to incorporate into our code base, yes.

>  I could envision a few changes, maybe to install mailman into different
>  directories to match the Debian standards, but 83 modules that are
>  different seems to be too many.

I agree, that seems like a lot.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Sep 27 19:35:15 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:35:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail going to list archives but not to list!
In-Reply-To: <67B052EE-6674-4CDD-A5F9-78831FD1CC97@python.org>
References: <PC1760200609222107150890d9712b29@msapiro>
	<PC1760200609222132200546979934f6@msapiro>
	<a923f15e0609260551u6bf454d6qa8d83e65ced62cbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240501c13f1d9c84d7@[10.0.1.4]>
	<F1D17064-38BF-4728-B0DF-B892A213C151@python.org>
	<p06240502c13f7ceedbd3@[10.0.1.4]>
	<67B052EE-6674-4CDD-A5F9-78831FD1CC97@python.org>
Message-ID: <p06240503c14066b0a529@[10.0.1.4]>

At 11:56 AM -0400 9/27/06, Barry Warsaw wrote:

>  You've made this point before and each time you do, I remember
>  that it's a good one. :)  Brad, would you mind adding this to
>  the Mailman 2.2 wiki page?

Will do.

>                              I think it's a worthy feature to add.

Thanks!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From larryj at gsu.edu  Wed Sep 27 21:29:28 2006
From: larryj at gsu.edu (Larry Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:29:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mbox files in the archives
Message-ID: <1159385368.343.8.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>

I asked a similar question to this earlier (involving the g'zipped files
in the archives).  I inherited administration of a mailman system (I'm a
solaris sysadmin) and have been trying to figure out the role of the
various files in the archives, so that I know what I can clean out for
space saving purposes.

What is the role of the *.mbox files in the archives?  What would the
effect be of removing one?  Of editing one (and removing older
messages)? They seem to grow continually.  What is best practice for
managing them?

Larry



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Sep 27 21:56:16 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:56:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mbox files in the archives
In-Reply-To: <1159385368.343.8.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
References: <1159385368.343.8.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927125341.0659e660@crimson-dragon.com>

Larry Johnson wrote:

>What is the role of the *.mbox files in the archives?  What would the
>effect be of removing one?  Of editing one (and removing older
>messages)? They seem to grow continually.  What is best practice for
>managing them?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

The mbox files are where the messages used to build the archive HTML 
files reside.

If you remove them or edit them, you would not be able to rebuild 
your archives the way they are if you ever had a need to do so.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Sep 27 22:07:44 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:07:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mbox files in the archives
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927125341.0659e660@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <1159385368.343.8.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060927125341.0659e660@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <34a783b20609271307l6b11873dx4c3068ea87064b20@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com> wrote:

> The mbox files are where the messages used to build the archive HTML
> files reside.
>
> If you remove them or edit them, you would not be able to rebuild
> your archives the way they are if you ever had a need to do so.

And, perhaps more importantly, if the list owners want to change the
templates and rebuild the archives to match the new appearance, you
wouldn't be able to do *that* either.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 22:04:25 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:04:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Client wants unique archiving method
In-Reply-To: <927D00A4-6511-40F2-9B2A-75358CE33AEF@fireboxstudios.com>
References: <85D14EC9-6CE4-4E1F-B559-9A31518CF8A2@fireboxstudios.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060823124021.063b6a58@crimson-dragon.com>
	<927D00A4-6511-40F2-9B2A-75358CE33AEF@fireboxstudios.com>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609271304x6285d98bw87f6a8e00f8b3060@mail.gmail.com>

I would think you could make it work "outside the system" by setting
reply-to-poster, then changing the alias for the list to go both to the list
processing command, and to a dummy-user . Then pipe the dummy user's mail
into something that is web-accessible. You could use another mailman list,
and either keep the membership lists in sync or  give the second list a
password that you advertise on the first list, or make it public. Or, you
could  use some mail-to-web gateway other than mailman.

But  I agree that in practice this wouldn't work too well. (although, there
will never be long chains of messages, because nobody will be able to reply
to a reply)


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 22:11:25 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:11:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mbox files in the archives
In-Reply-To: <1159385368.343.8.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
References: <1159385368.343.8.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
Message-ID: <1159387885.19913.4.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 15:29 -0400, Larry Johnson wrote:
> I asked a similar question to this earlier (involving the g'zipped files
> in the archives).  I inherited administration of a mailman system (I'm a
> solaris sysadmin) and have been trying to figure out the role of the
> various files in the archives, so that I know what I can clean out for
> space saving purposes.
> 
> What is the role of the *.mbox files in the archives?  What would the
> effect be of removing one?  Of editing one (and removing older
> messages)? They seem to grow continually.  What is best practice for
> managing them?

The mbox files are the raw messages used to rebuild the html archive
files.  There are patches available to make them easier to manage, look
for "Daily mbox files" here: 
    http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/index.html

I have a FAQ entry that describes what to do to disable access to the
mbox/txt files here:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.066.htp

-Jim P.



From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 22:06:59 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:06:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Client wants unique archiving method
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0609271304x6285d98bw87f6a8e00f8b3060@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85D14EC9-6CE4-4E1F-B559-9A31518CF8A2@fireboxstudios.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060823124021.063b6a58@crimson-dragon.com>
	<927D00A4-6511-40F2-9B2A-75358CE33AEF@fireboxstudios.com>
	<a923f15e0609271304x6285d98bw87f6a8e00f8b3060@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a923f15e0609271306n566e4fb7sd182530f9ad4c04a@mail.gmail.com>

Oh nevermind, I am on crack. This wouldn't work.
You'd still have to use some intermediate filter to decide what was a reply
and what was an original.

On 9/27/06, Elizabeth Schwartz <betsy.schwartz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would think you could make it work "outside the system" by setting
> reply-to-poster, then changing the alias for the list to go both to the list
> processing command, and to a dummy-user . Then pipe the dummy user's mail
> into something that is web-accessible. You could use another mailman list,
> and either keep the membership lists in sync or  give the second list a
> password that you advertise on the first list, or make it public. Or, you
> could  use some mail-to-web gateway other than mailman.
>
> But  I agree that in practice this wouldn't work too well. (although,
> there will never be long chains of messages, because nobody will be able to
> reply to a reply)
>


From bob at bergey.net  Wed Sep 27 23:58:58 2006
From: bob at bergey.net (Bob Bergey)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:58:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can Google be used to search archives?
Message-ID: <p0623090bc140a3c463cd@[10.0.1.2]>

Can Google Free Search be set up to use for searches of my Mailman 
archives? How would I go about it? I searched the list archives here 
but didn't find anything on the topic.

Also, the list in question is a list where archives are set up to be 
viewable only by current list members.

Bob


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 00:01:14 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:01:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can Google be used to search archives?
In-Reply-To: <p0623090bc140a3c463cd@10.0.1.2>
References: <p0623090bc140a3c463cd@10.0.1.2>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00609271501g2e8db39dr20e2914fef581c82@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/27/06, Bob Bergey <bob at bergey.net> wrote:
> Can Google Free Search be set up to use for searches of my Mailman
> archives? How would I go about it? I searched the list archives here
> but didn't find anything on the topic.
>
> Also, the list in question is a list where archives are set up to be
> viewable only by current list members.

Probably not, with private archives. Then again, I don't know much
about Google Free Search.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Sep 28 00:24:44 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 15:24:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can Google be used to search archives?
In-Reply-To: <p0623090bc140a3c463cd@[10.0.1.2]>
References: <p0623090bc140a3c463cd@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060927151855.065cab70@crimson-dragon.com>

Bob Bergey wrote:
>Can Google Free Search be set up to use for searches of my Mailman
>archives? How would I go about it? I searched the list archives here
>but didn't find anything on the topic.
>
>Also, the list in question is a list where archives are set up to be
>viewable only by current list members.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

If your archives were public, Google could crawl your archive and index it.

Because your archive is private, you cannot use Google to search the 
pages. Google knows nothing about mailman's authentication scheme and 
would be unable to access the archive pages so it could crawl them 
and index them. The other issue here is that Google's index is pretty 
much open to everyone, they have no way that I am aware of to 
restrict searches by domain so excerpts (and cached versions of the 
pages) from your private archives would become publicly accessible if 
a search matches one of your pages.

Which leads me to the next question... why not use something like 
htdig or namazu for searching your site? These can be integrated into 
mailman through a few patches and are relatively easy to set up.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Sep 28 02:16:32 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:16:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail Man Help
In-Reply-To: <ad42dc900609260309o3cb74596r9b777fabbc24b8a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006092717163204689cd15374@msapir